From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32297 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2021 15:57:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Sep 2021 15:57:17 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2A0249C9A9; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:57:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2869C870; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:56:31 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="AnHwHMTa"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9D8899C870; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:56:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com (mail-vs1-f54.google.com [209.85.217.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D9339BA1E for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:56:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id u1so4724662vsq.10 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:56:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=50TUUsgkxicdPHgmDjviXkdU0L8AVV2IUlnUZXMfK54=; b=AnHwHMTa6Zaga/AErEnAzkkhTD5TM/6AMhH8KVIw4ao1/xDN4WBR5eeNuyjTnYBNmB qsNEwwUq5iPohqESJxOo/nsc186EtbvEJlJNX67K9hW+t6PqXfTMjOoGswqVhnOk475p dM6BZatQncGwvNdK71Um0oWEeWBRIVpQPPaiEVqS9K/zSwBuV5elBdP8T/KNRTebTCHz uY8MyWO9C92H8CJydmsnV67HmoYoEqjimGHSpXygw8UrkC1MFYRoTBk/HZclhKURz5yA o6kuhjXSlOe52shHBhvtQH2Em+qRKD1Cc1VWKHRwEha+SxLKdrWn17Fi2qLYKAiIQwzU DkGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=50TUUsgkxicdPHgmDjviXkdU0L8AVV2IUlnUZXMfK54=; b=hOYcWLmeCeW3S2ta58XF5vU5oFvGKKNa8DiFxd2h+90NGtTMapiM1RdscrZ67cJFbe ZFpzdyVhS/5SSfoq100BGQgp7IA8HE80WTkSmrA9uSpabHSzq4ZzoNvCi8vXqtxAXboR WJgjrImDWLk6IRXeTniDjvAFAMJH8sJU763szHZiCg6gCKzkeGgcwPLO+unrGmxe+3No fm54ljlkUKRipQCzJOLr3tUNjLnpJfEDlLiyjUxON+lvyZRAiyNeY1SpFE9eL90bTyMj YJt4zczSG9OEahtLaXCPBk2cH2Bk4l0BUM5txi0weaxIscCPVX6pNYj0gFgOTm+DVcuF 9ZKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530n8F8Uo68zv5SEafSX2rpdm0tbjVqajjLR0/WHeZXihlQV64m3 JovmtHAFHVgMOPBDRozguL/Hup8b8rS0A5gF5o65K2J4B00= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5Ee65ya437ocXIiQi+hpRVHmSOh6GYM/A80OPkAbTmQGFh+fGFNOoEcO/5LE6cXsJ7G34tnBWpMYyU5TxAXE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e253:: with SMTP id w19mr3557260vse.30.1630684584446; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 09:56:13 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000659aa105cb1957bf" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000659aa105cb1957bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:00 PM Dan Cross wrote: > I'm curious about other peoples' thoughts on the talk and the overall > topic? > My comment is that the mental map that he presents has always been a lie. At least it's been a lie from a very early time. Even in Unibus/Qbus days, the add-in cards had some kind of processor on it from an early time. Several of the VAX boards had 68000 or similar CPUs that managed memory. Even the simpler MFM boards had buffer memory that needed to be managed before the DMA/PIO pulled it out of the card. There's always been an element of different address spaces with different degrees of visibility into those address spaces. What has changed is all of these things are now on the SoC die so you have good visibility (well, as good as the docs) into these things. The number of different things has increased, and the for cross domain knowledge has increased. The simplistic world view was even inaccurate at the start.... Warner --000000000000659aa105cb1957bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:00 PM Dan Cr= oss <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:=
I'm curious about other peoples' thoughts on the talk and the ov= erall topic?

My comment is that= the mental map that he presents has always been a lie.
At least = it's been a lie from a very early time.

Even i= n Unibus/Qbus days, the add-in cards had some kind of processor
o= n it from an early time. Several of the VAX boards had 68000 or similar
CPUs that managed memory. Even the simpler MFM boards had buffer
memory that needed to be managed before the DMA/PIO pulled it out
of the card. There's always been an element of different addres= s spaces
with different degrees of visibility into those address = spaces.

What has changed is all of these things ar= e now on the SoC die so
you have good visibility (well, as good a= s the docs) into these things.
The number of different things has= increased, and the for cross domain
knowledge has increased.

The simplistic world view was even inaccurate at the = start....

Warner=C2=A0
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