From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15145 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2023 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Mar 2023 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA9B415BA; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 04:05:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B5E1415B8 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 04:05:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id y4so3754047edo.2 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:05:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678557946; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KUpy12ATNMbHMmakpeuWKasq77mIVvUnVErC38qtIec=; b=C8cpMu3o07wBoiRoITTCGwIkIuws6QIhhTqYp9gNvbR7nLr1IXWM71Hi7IucZv1/zY A2reQSiaxwJDvaOvJlPhIxakbKaizq9pdCuckr/biPl8e/F8YHtT4oJEe3rO+tYr9UGY 0DDpOVFvRiAUwUkg9zLwZKREeTybBveD+/CZuEBcNb/axoc+l2e8sH9gQl41mq24v5Sf t7h3VdOvJLA5Kzk1PoJfBYYj1ToJSMxZVklCcFor2xGJmWuqQc4EFrDGKlbgBzbXdPHG zr5aYZ4j8rABJHrxrclRzG0OkzQFiTUXub1bUl+1lqbj62ROcpUGIWiyi6Bg0/xYaPmk NG6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678557946; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KUpy12ATNMbHMmakpeuWKasq77mIVvUnVErC38qtIec=; b=Tw2SmSbTi9ZBx+gFovcgNpnt5KJONwtpPM8zqZyZ54YRLlHsjjJ+0grRjZqG5iRS4S RG59AcQzMgRP1h7CB6uieAp5p0LSeddoUe8FYMfRFOZHtBFVM/0RdXzbDgo5IPKr53LI O8jbxQl1yGdCW+0KS3xQ3NovOSP6SruygZRtkCcR2ZySmHHvE7mXZjcFcx/jn4aQSXGV nJOgbdl2btzn1Z6YXY+j9HQsTh/QMt8koKQsncL4aKguuY/NTD9p4mWRwfLiWT403zu3 bolzl9vzhYYi4BmwEcdmxDWwZMbQ2hQz1JHltPm4VfoVZEMNirNxxl72oMkcGR/FvfyS aW1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXU1bfAyweAPnK7ZlcVQgv3mlK7qD1cFCi1BUlCuk4gkEMn5aWX om29FYvtPSI6qOmO9/hdFn1ZG6TTNdbxrsx0Qj+GsYIIoS0IMsliw8Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8JEVBf75cPFs6hV4GGKvrajpumyBW3JnXOnR9cjCSForhk2Ijsda0eAHe4YSea+7tu9I/UskxphwzzLWE1cbc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:1481:b0:888:6294:a1fd with SMTP id x1-20020a170906148100b008886294a1fdmr13867953ejc.2.1678557945705; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:05:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9QXzG1pmIgoHdlkiU-ljIDoco5SPzWKEudlEu8W26K28NXD_2bgCijSQmWAn7CBthISuVyzSuxvPGUKmv6A5Gsc-GoNrDb8SA1D5_m449nA=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2023 11:05:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Gray Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016ca4b05f6a3bae1" Message-ID-Hash: WT7JBTVC4LKJNVBV3RRNSL6YI2V326HO X-Message-ID-Hash: WT7JBTVC4LKJNVBV3RRNSL6YI2V326HO X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: PWB 1.0 Distro and Licensing Timeframe List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000016ca4b05f6a3bae1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:12 AM Jonathan Gray wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 01:24:26PM -0800, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 2:07 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > The other really important piece is that the V7 redistribution license > was > > > the first that allowed vendors to ship binaries, and this is all > pre-Judge > > > Green. The vendors started the negotiation for the replacement of > the V7 > > > license almost at day one [December 1979 was the first meeting at > Ricki's > > > Hyatt - which I have described earlier]. > > > > > > > How did The Wollongong Group sell/send out the Interdata/Harris Unix > Level > > 6 binaries then? Or did they get some kind of special since they bought > the > > rights from Wollongong University? > > That was commercially sold as a v7 port (in 1980) according to > Juris Reinfelds in > tuhs/Distributions/Other/Interdata/uow103747.pdf > "Price includes a binary license" > https://archive.org/details/login_october-1980/page/11/mode/2up They also sold the v6 port. They were quite proud of that legacy when I worked there in 1989. Of course, this was the marketing department, and they never lie or exaggerate, right? I'm guessing now they were counting the original tapes that the University had sent out... I'm suddenly doubting the lore that I've known as a fact for a long time... I have references to Wollongong Unix, Level 6 in my Lillihammer talk, which I had seen when I worked there, but the only references I can find to that are about the University version, not the TWG version now that I'm looking again for it. However, the earliest documentation that I could find is for the 7th edition, though. https://kyber.io/rawvids/uow103747_uow103747.pdf in the frustrations section on the 4th page (which looks to be the same thing that is in TUHS). Another location is page 37 of https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V03.2.pdf which talks about EDITION VII and EDITION VII WORKBENCH on WOLLONGONG GROUP letterhead (the same letterhead I got my TWG job offer on, interestingly enough). This is the first mention of TWG in the AUUGN. Interesting too was that TWG claimed 'EDITION VII' as a trademark... Human Computing Resources (HCR), were somewhat related to the University > of Toronto's Dynamic Graphics Project. HCR first sold Xenix and later > UNITY? Richard Miller worked at HCR and was involved with their port to > the NS16032 after the Interdata port > > https://archive.org/details/1983-proceedings-unicom-san-diego/page/269/mode/2up > Yes. He was quite the prolific porter... > ISC were selling products based on v6 and PWB in 1977: > "By June he had formed Interactive Systems Corp. in Santa Monica, > Calif., and had a license from Bell Labs to market Unix-based systems. > ... > The company calls its enhanced Unix systems Interactive System/One. > Interactive System/Two is coming along. It too is based on a Bell Labs > development. This one, called Programmers Workbench (PWB), uses Unix > and makes it possible to develop software for large scale computers > using minis. Interactive has a license from Bell for PWB, similar to > the one it holds for Unix." > Datamation, November 1977, pg 189 > > https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_datamation_42830601/page/n179/mode/2up That's a nice find... It doesn't say v6 or 6th Edition, nor which version of pwb, but in 1977 it must be V6 or earlier. Warner --00000000000016ca4b05f6a3bae1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:12 AM Jonatha= n Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au= > wrote:
On Fri, Mar 10, 202= 3 at 01:24:26PM -0800, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 2:07 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: >
> > The other really important piece is that the V7 redistribution li= cense was
> > the first that allowed vendors to ship binaries, and this is all = pre-Judge
> > Green.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The vendors started the negotiation for the r= eplacement of the V7
> > license almost at day one [December 1979 was the first meeting at= Ricki's
> > Hyatt - which I have described earlier].
> >
>
> How did The Wollongong Group sell/send out the Interdata/Harris Unix L= evel
> 6 binaries then? Or did they get some kind of special since they bough= t the
> rights from Wollongong University?

That was commercially sold as a v7 port (in 1980) according to
Juris Reinfelds in
tuhs/Distributions/Other/Interdata/uow103747.pdf
"Price includes a binary license"
https://archive.org/detail= s/login_october-1980/page/11/mode/2up

They also sold the v6 port. They were= quite proud of that legacy when I worked
there in 1= 989. Of course, this was the marketing department, and they never
lie or exaggerate, right? I'm guessing now they were counting the orig= inal tapes
that the University had sent out... I'm suddenly d= oubting the lore that I've
known as a fact for a long time...= I have references to Wollongong Unix, Level 6
in my Lillihammer = talk, which I had seen when I worked there, but the only
referenc= es I can find to that are about the University version, not the TWG
version now that I'm looking again for it.

However, the earliest documentation that I could find is f= or the 7th edition, though.

which talks about EDITION VII and EDITION= VII WORKBENCH on WOLLONGONG
GROUP letterhead (the same letterhea= d I got my TWG job offer on, interestingly
enough). This is the f= irst mention of TWG in the AUUGN. Interesting too was
that TWG cl= aimed 'EDITION VII' as a trademark...
Human Computing Resources (HCR), were somewhat related to the University of Toronto's Dynamic Graphics Project.=C2=A0 HCR first sold Xenix and l= ater
UNITY?=C2=A0 Richard Miller worked at HCR and was involved with their port = to
the NS16032 after the Interdata port
https://ar= chive.org/details/1983-proceedings-unicom-san-diego/page/269/mode/2up

Yes. He was quite the prolific porter...=
=C2=A0
ISC were selling products based on v6 and PWB in 1977:
"By June he had formed Interactive Systems Corp. in Santa Monica,
Calif., and had a license from Bell Labs to market Unix-based systems.
...
The company calls its enhanced Unix systems Interactive System/One.
Interactive System/Two is coming along. It too is based on a Bell Labs
development.=C2=A0 This one, called Programmers Workbench (PWB), uses Unix<= br> and makes it possible to develop software for large scale computers
using minis. Interactive has a license from Bell for PWB, similar to
the one it holds for Unix."
Datamation, November 1977, pg 189
https://archi= ve.org/details/bitsavers_datamation_42830601/page/n179/mode/2up

That's a nice find... It doesn't say v6 or= 6th Edition, nor which version of pwb,
but in 1977 it must be V6= or earlier.

Warner
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