From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10845 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2021 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Jul 2021 19:35:29 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D78339C802; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 05:35:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 743019C7F1; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 05:35:11 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="EerLoKpi"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C9A229C7F1; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 05:35:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f179.google.com (mail-qk1-f179.google.com [209.85.222.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 028EE9C7F0 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 05:35:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f179.google.com with SMTP id m68so6323781qke.7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 12:35:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YFSugWoNymTW+Wz2f2TykhN5i1eZmWcXsT7a2PCs+NY=; b=EerLoKpirSnC0AqaXfGIY+sedufeN19yMFbqf2aXQWSGXLLEvRKMpOaDoE1NbFQp4t sZM30q5NPcrx1mMo065VWOoECdpisIO0UONGUeKQd3yEYM96IdS18MUjzkcS1JE6V3q/ sNay0W2FX4xaB1jjLjjZOE0Hcr5+5fPqDos0kUrurCQz7lG/VqznfE36Gwcz2tRoQ9cp 09uP33lDLO7TveLA9+9/KtvH9/VI1x7fiqI3IMBrp9lL0KXMPp8E03hJZrWTkC//I5vx XG8pPrCY88DV0FRQfuNeEGJlDbQrgaRKzllyRDXze4lC07uOlsNGkJYwmpUXWF0NCpCp bq3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YFSugWoNymTW+Wz2f2TykhN5i1eZmWcXsT7a2PCs+NY=; b=axWVjMddkKHyoMLRIKu2B2BImA7hdzklHbBRBOGpX4AfdHg+2pABjJGERb26OUDKBC 5FkspAznZAUTLKdtaeSKCt3owVpDqbISIoIJRunwMLF2dxphdWtgKKVCpjhaafUMb6Wg s+eY43R0u9LJhPC5TsqXACL5sAyJnfe3fuC4nyekRThOBc5uTMsYwjicJYJz5TNlzyEA PAxPV32+g9lZ72lj2FNhk16VRwM3HuPT9BhT2E7hF2DA8/VppeKIOEuejYKWZJdMm634 I/jUHhrGvwujRlnaHGV72I/ITK0ZPDQXCrjahzXKjYtLlUwKkmITbsqUcaWt2pLbUvON 4pNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533i+cr50DCKHxoEG3witJCH6f1+oM0t+ex4AYaOvIwcQTxj8IvB FeD5h/FyMJxck86FgG+ivTfqD9vXUXQkUUYU1Mz3Ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxirMuUncRZ/NeydFSov9a0nfIZ5Fu7TZM6O3PgE4De1Ws6WmXhtDZFdWsTy71jQtusUeT7IEEWprVRtckdAKs= X-Received: by 2002:a37:e4f:: with SMTP id 76mr5549804qko.44.1626377708011; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 12:35:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1626375671.1426.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 13:34:57 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e9c2405c72e9102" Subject: Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000008e9c2405c72e9102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The C compiler we had at NMT that Greg Titus wrote/rewrote allowed one to pick a number of different choices for character size (5, 6, 7 or 8). It defaulted to 7 or 8. I recall that the defaults produced OK results for student work, but that was a bit slow for pushing the envelope without some very careful choices. But it was good enough for me to write my OS group project running under 'ZAYEF' a DecSystem-20 emulator running on the DecSystem 20 under TOPS-20... My first exposure to virtual machines... It was a total trip to have 18 bit pointers and weird interrupt semantics.... I really rather working on the VAX 11/750 in 'C' and later on the Sun3/50s more, though. In part because the debugger was better (or at least more approachable by m= y poor undergraduate mind). Warner On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 1:28 PM Clem Cole wrote: > The 'second' C compiler was a PDP-10 and Honeywell (36-bit) target Alan > Synder did for his MIT Thesis. > It was originally targeted to ITS for the PDP-10, but it ran on Tops-20 > also. > > My >>memory<< is he used a 7-bit Character, ala SAIL, with 5 chars stored > in a word with a bit leftover. > > You can check it out: https://github.com/PDP-10/Snyder-C-compiler > > I believe that C compiler Nelson is talking about I believe is actually > Synder's that Jay either ported from ITS or WAITS. > > We had some form of the Synder compiler on the PDP-10's at CMU in the lat= e > 1970s. > It was either Mike Accetta or Fil Aleva that wrote a program to read > PDP-10 backup tapes, that I updated to deal with TOPS-20/TENEX 'dumper' > format which was similar/only different. > =E1=90=A7 > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 3:03 PM Norman Wilson wrote: > >> Nelson H. F. Beebe: >> >> P.S. Jay was the first to get Steve Johnson's Portable C Compiler, >> pcc, to run on the 36-bit PDP-10, and once we had pcc, we began the >> move from writing utilities in Pascal and PDP-10 assembly language to >> doing them in C. >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> How did that C implementation handle ASCII text on the DEC-10? >> Were it a from-scratch UNIX port it might make sense to store >> four eight- or nine-bit bytes to a word, but if (as I sense it >> was) it was C running on TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, it would have had >> to work comfortably with DEC's convention of five 7-bit characters >> (plus a spare bit used by some programs as a flag). >> >> Norman Wilson >> Toronto ON >> > --0000000000008e9c2405c72e9102 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The C compiler we had at NMT that Greg Titus wrote/re= wrote allowed one to pick a number
of different choices for chara= cter size (5, 6, 7 or 8). It defaulted to 7 or 8. I recall that the
defaults produced OK results=C2=A0for student work, but that was a bit s= low for pushing the
envelope without some very careful choices. B= ut it was good enough for me to write
my OS group project running= under 'ZAYEF' a DecSystem-20 emulator running on the
Dec= System 20 under TOPS-20... My first exposure to virtual machines... It was = a total
trip to have 18 bit pointers and weird interrupt semantic= s....

I really rather working on the VAX 11/750 in= 'C' and later on the Sun3/50s more, though.
In part beca= use the debugger was better (or at least more approachable by my
= poor undergraduate mind).

Warner

On Thu, Jul 15, 20= 21 at 1:28 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
The &= #39;second' C compiler was a PDP-10 and Honeywell (36-bit) target Alan = Synder did for his MIT Thesis.
It was originally targeted to ITS for the PDP-10, but it ran= on Tops-20 also.

My >&g= t;memory<< is he used a 7-bit Character, ala SAIL, with 5 chars store= d in a word with a bit leftover.


<= /div>
I believe that C= compiler Nelson is talking about I believe is actually Synder's that J= ay either ported from ITS=C2=A0 or WAITS.

We had some form of the Synder compiler on the PDP-10's = at CMU in the late 1970s.
It was either Mike Accetta or Fil Aleva that wrote a program to r= ead PDP-10 backup tapes, that=C2=A0I=C2=A0updated to deal with=C2=A0TOPS-20= /TENEX 'dumper' format which was similar/only different.
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 3:03 PM Norman Wilson <= ;norman@oclsc.org= > wrote:
Nels= on H. F. Beebe:

=C2=A0 P.S. Jay was the first to get Steve Johnson's Portable C Compile= r,
=C2=A0 pcc, to run on the 36-bit PDP-10, and once we had pcc, we began the<= br> =C2=A0 move from writing utilities in Pascal and PDP-10 assembly language t= o
=C2=A0 doing them in C.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

How did that C implementation handle ASCII text on the DEC-10?
Were it a from-scratch UNIX port it might make sense to store
four eight- or nine-bit bytes to a word, but if (as I sense it
was) it was C running on TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, it would have had
to work comfortably with DEC's convention of five 7-bit characters
(plus a spare bit used by some programs as a flag).

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
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