From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 73ca1737 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 22:25:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CB6AA9CCC7; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:25:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5249CCAB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:25:33 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1581114345; bh=L3Mtf4FQdFRy+3p22fpAw2KQDRMt+YmwhU82dbBEP2k=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:List-Id:List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive: List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:From; b=u7UenV+LgtdxCyXxCXahHYM4bBYuOKXQD66wRtO9gWCjjdpvoIx1p7ac+2PqHo5JZ GJ4hv84cOsUcXHg7AywwsF19BkA2oNVUUnlIj/Rp1dHXkvJCZR1RbtmJWr0EJUWXdj HqrmOmcazcsHO+inVaH9nysTr7YaHBVbAKWlcOJk= Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F0DEC9CCAB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:25:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from lgv20.local.net (unknown [138.217.180.66]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CCE229CCA9 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:25:30 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1581114331; bh=L3Mtf4FQdFRy+3p22fpAw2KQDRMt+YmwhU82dbBEP2k=; h=Date:Subject:To:From:From; b=cIDQuim7MDtvNysD6oTU0zSjwau9V7Gg71AvfuoK2y4D6U2LCBoPfxKxCJ8eGgd32 +nRgwmd7g16ATPoazyj9/CoqdLjynZiNAulyhdMvjVqU8hZT6wXO+S4wecei28Hfrr 7DAnB+O810xftlDH38Z5WWDce7d7YUI+TsmIbsRc= Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 08:25:27 +1000 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----H7LZIB2H3SLFALH2P3N09C79LRBXVI" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: tuhs@tuhs.org From: Warren Toomey Message-ID: Subject: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" ------H7LZIB2H3SLFALH2P3N09C79LRBXVI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://fosdem=2Eorg/2020/schedule/event/early_unix/ The video of Warner Losh's FOSDEM presentation "The Hidden Early History o= f Unix" is now available=2E Cheers, Warren --=20 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------H7LZIB2H3SLFALH2P3N09C79LRBXVI Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://fo= sdem=2Eorg/2020/schedule/event/early_unix/

The video of Warner L= osh's FOSDEM presentation "The Hidden Early History of Unix" is now availab= le=2E

Cheers, Warren
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 M= ail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------H7LZIB2H3SLFALH2P3N09C79LRBXVI-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 2606a493 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 23:58:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F2C019CCBB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:58:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA79CCAE; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:57:57 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="NHaqqIqP"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7C4109CCAB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:57:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f45.google.com (mail-vs1-f45.google.com [209.85.217.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FA169CCA9; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:57:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f45.google.com with SMTP id p6so721039vsj.11; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 15:57:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pCIJB0Pdh+suXW00uKgVNRcRrZXaKW5nkbNAvuCfjFs=; b=NHaqqIqPM2r8oMOuVs0fNjm7G78fSAgWThtEahQVRvBVY2iIuxJYkP0h6sTd/5ztHo ExsIDIOrUFmDf44TObbJEba9UYm25D5TCJydnxCczQlCnUm/ROjJKXZ9ks/rXSntwvcW Tbqn0Dc3KRsQOktLafQH7yYd9xKMtF6kVahPNUYpkwXjnznAuekdVqbclGeoPOZLm3n1 Edl3qBnoPCzeA/C4ujHLmBz396+w1iLJP8J9mqOyO1lFEKBx7o7vDsGs14Ax1aIwWV6C Lv+6v1BAOSgnCgP6EpNww44qEOoAKrRJ/HOuQZNxSB/mQUl8g+7+aq1JT/XJ7enk94at fuRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pCIJB0Pdh+suXW00uKgVNRcRrZXaKW5nkbNAvuCfjFs=; b=EmIeGCpwftGg6tLq1ehHp93HVoMii9dS5bIcm/GgtrL5aqJz8sTrW+OYZASSx9tlrG PCmbXAlHIFiTUcYU4J6qQkCkj1F0uuqivq56yhFHFnhPRN6EXpxsBqh/TRhySy1uhiXr gJyTn6wA+1P9OMpytcz5JBPFSaiGCP9ICgINo3SRTEGqv4Xw6L/Cl1hhgNlgoMQ93sWA 0NfiIvijvQuG4ZGxe+HUYg157L6J/dX2lruuequ40yUh67QmIUIVVI+FviksY5f9d65p 8coZ9YZ0ISM9A01Pvqk2GLYKrLN1H65bE4Z6EKxcTjBIHse7LApg08VK3AzsBfHXOGIg oDVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVkPuKwfJerpZKtf/EfJg2gO9VoEVVwHjy88oK4OhDQP6I8KGlw cy0B/P82FgN6wxXP3xYX5T8/047n3GS7jd8QmwgPPVxv X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzMTpQCmbFn6E/O3+uAFt7lHXlABhMimcIfq4TjaZaf8rMuyVjQlbEJd60DykvILbWUKlGc1J2ImTPnksBuxnw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c90d:: with SMTP id w13mr627498vsk.164.1581119872803; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 15:57:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 10:57:41 +1100 Message-ID: To: Warren Toomey Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005da88e059e0528f7" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005da88e059e0528f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Very nice talk with lots of good background. It made me think of the boxes of DECTapes we had under the Unix room floor, and what we might have lost. (Volunteers did manage to recover a couple of them, but time was short). PWB inaccuracy: The talk said that tools like grep and sed came from PWB, but that's not true. They were original, as I'm sure Warner knows; he just misspoke. Slightly more important: PWB also did not introduce the idea of the shell (neither did Unix, for that matter), although there was a distinct shell for that system that included the legendary pump operator, later superseded by here documents. The flow from PWB back to the main research line was a trickle at best. We had bad NIH in 1127. -rob --0000000000005da88e059e0528f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Very nice talk with lots of good background. It made = me think of the boxes of DECTapes we had under the Unix room floor, and wha= t we might have lost. (Volunteers did manage to recover a couple of them, b= ut time was short).

PWB inaccuracy: The talk said = that tools like grep and sed came from PWB, but that's not true. They w= ere original, as I'm sure Warner knows; he just misspoke. Slightly more= important: PWB also did not introduce the idea of the shell (neither did U= nix, for that matter), although there was a distinct shell for that system = that included the legendary pump operator, later superseded by here documen= ts. The flow from PWB back to the main research line was a trickle at best.= We had bad NIH in 1127.

-rob

=
--0000000000005da88e059e0528f7-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3c6a4b36 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 00:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8D3E09CCC8; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 10:44:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73829CCAB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 10:43:55 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1581122650; bh=iqqDV1U/TATGDtTKkQFUoDpBkNTZ2lH7qUDzRvkaJhk=; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: From; b=OKd7NI7SZFw6o0um60NUbGcu4iq1Yx2xyfVYB/PfHRlOcxWtB/q+izgEMLAhrJGwj EUfGUsAGhWqZ6ItuA6L1yk7OaXK65k32hh70N47DFP4wHFSIUwdnnMTB1hD18fN8R0 AtqOkp974uSJjL5j4g/26DD71yUXyfSvd5V0uxsk= Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A64729CCAA; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 10:43:52 +1000 (AEST) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 10:43:52 +1000 From: Warren Toomey To: tuhs@tuhs.org Message-ID: <20200208004352.GA4931@minnie.tuhs.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 10:57:41AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > Slightly more important: PWB also did not introduce > the idea of the shell (neither did Unix, for that matter) ... Yes, we should ask Warner what he meant here. I thought perhaps he meant a shell which allowed scripts. Also, another nitpick not just for Warner but for a few talks I've seen over the past 12 months. TUHS is the Unix _Heritage_ Society not the Unix Historical Society :-) I don't mind either way, happy for us to get some attention! Cheers all, Warren From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9833338c for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 03:37:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C0D749CCC3; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 13:37:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6DB9CCAA; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 13:37:36 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="HTQDs8xH"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 76F9B9CCAB; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 13:37:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f174.google.com (mail-qt1-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0EEA9CCA9 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 13:37:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f174.google.com with SMTP id w8so1000345qts.11 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 19:37:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QmvL4+/+bFeyVGntIdL8UfQ6MYc9hdoa5eqqfYPI1i4=; b=HTQDs8xHV3Xd+imunmbMxYfC4l1sUevHHyPLpuV0oFISh7o5eGL7yGlCkKttzG0LJy uTDOEVCrKSVbCjFXxn+09oQicKTQ6N05A0h/prSS6jBLR5dIKxloCzVhnLUqB9JjRidx MBS+YMjJ30Ww0vLQieFCRjYJsAUbJlS1jxZlc5QtgfUzI6Bb67Twh1eXYweIqiEkM/iT 8mzwqN0p/b9miHxrsC0pAHCdp65WQ2RFjxnxH4nTKW3q1alOmhbe3vJkwWHRKBQRIfRk qiWT3HhmI0u18iM4QS0D7Ta83SP399VRex6JuhjbnUdw+tzheC14HVCrPjnsTZQ8h1I7 f/UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QmvL4+/+bFeyVGntIdL8UfQ6MYc9hdoa5eqqfYPI1i4=; b=LW42DnB4u0Ssac/htn3wgqJHWVTWMSBLhsTEEEG1JpYN44Ew1qaFPpO3H1bi9kcTn/ fUxJaMNZfyHj4W1/Nx5KlK8p9v2KhUDciCvnn1zPPfnOOwcK0tlcWQ1A08aNqCiMsmYI rJ2i8IjtoJUP+RAX8lzYh5dYfOs3OYDX6T3b5hkaDxzaknEvpbH7inwccOi05/FENXnD 31DZrtRpQY+VU8oiasEJneSVGwh0SCAIsAtDguE5Gz3qhDFr/T/7ak4t5BKHjs/rlTEm ibJQt+XqkNLE3mtQpPTj+Ov40CFl2fhZwfQKWN3BcMb/ac63eBhpDY0hCmG8FEycO15K HY9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCiWsnE9UVUHm/9zdTLukJUayu3BUgyK3N0flTNBIJjpzUfI9K 8tESryoppvaWt+4FHrRuxW9DbLvodjGqHRF4iJFgxPAp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxiavmj5G4jb48aM4RK5ihvdEFCVm/8uyKbehI3glz5R7Ifik3foa8XvTnzIDqELAJ1ZCzcRFmrJoDqEM+oOF4= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:78c:: with SMTP id l12mr1373719qth.187.1581133052771; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 19:37:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200208004352.GA4931@minnie.tuhs.org> In-Reply-To: <20200208004352.GA4931@minnie.tuhs.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 20:37:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Warren Toomey Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f41577059e083935" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f41577059e083935 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 7, 2020, 5:44 PM Warren Toomey wrote: > On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 10:57:41AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > Slightly more important: PWB also did not introduce > > the idea of the shell (neither did Unix, for that matter) ... > > Yes, we should ask Warner what he meant here. I thought perhaps he meant > a shell which allowed script > Yes. I meant the first shell that allowed real scripting. Also, another nitpick not just for Warner but for a few talks I've seen > over the past 12 months. TUHS is the Unix _Heritage_ Society not the > Unix Historical Society :-) > Doh! I don't mind either way, happy for us to get some attention! > > Cheers all, Warren > --000000000000f41577059e083935 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Feb 7, 2020, 5:44 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 10:57:41AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Slightly more important: PWB also did not introduce
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the idea of the shell (neither did Unix, for that matter)= ...

Yes, we should ask Warner what he meant here. I thought perhaps he meant a shell which allowed script
=
Yes. I meant the first shell that allowed real = scripting.

Also, another nitpick not just for Warner but for a few talks I've seen=
over the past 12 months. TUHS is the Unix _Heritage_ Society not the
Unix Historical Society :-)
<= br>
Doh!

I don't mind either way, happy for us to get some attention!

Cheers all, Warren
--000000000000f41577059e083935-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id bf30cdc6 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 52D429CCBE; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 01:16:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDF79CCAB; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 01:15:51 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="WTKdZCKz"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 51E139CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 01:15:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f176.google.com (mail-qk1-f176.google.com [209.85.222.176]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E39699CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 01:15:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f176.google.com with SMTP id q15so2205620qki.2 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 07:15:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BjqwGKQM1gZcH7IsXNGY+t7P05why95IAimt/G3qdMU=; b=WTKdZCKzO3DXX7oYFyqgLqSR32riN20Dn9VwPBCX3BI4c2Kbu6IgeCzbYqu5cCC1ld 9uyeNti5XzRpDVZrq0FE2EPEAsWwPSPUNaPY6s6Cf0gP1oX/Rgyvimp4N6kjzKOl35yH mT4FFHZdsFjKow2gsVao1biyciDIYPJQiBcSZPI+OHhDIeYEDcsIAkYLCv0INYrpb7f6 rfFiOzqau5bNMfmF7MWSHKucrYTN6Ib02Z2J4ClisqE28vsulMoG3IM0PPJOW71bOXRM tI1u7Bj1+I6oMu31QtYPAD6L7lzOOp81SzW8b0nue7yjK/MeCuSitRNsYzGPe/U6jDtX /XJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BjqwGKQM1gZcH7IsXNGY+t7P05why95IAimt/G3qdMU=; b=Xi3sr5pMyu/iJYuiEUemzPk5B20tu237BRiuQIrwguiYflt0Kg5Uf2p+FtptBPGijV Pdy+aHpcEVEW5meV5VPg/mMOdbvu09akbeE5Vp0Odm7sArnGgne1Hz02xVzLnIC7WJJl zxOnKpdDcdFWIkI1DdCjB4CmG4UxtVGwh7i5tKHFTF5+jVkD3Ye8m8tExoxUZxTpoJby 2E6quNvV59CyjkJ51zz1Daj5IWZ69ocGAW2pMt3lh3PV0uZY0eRpdBZkLaiOKgMmTWQ9 YP9/CXiO4fZ/cjOGJgGEW8/vRGEcLMizhsrHBrZyvtfx8tKaTDXN4xXTUbUQh6jbGps9 /VVg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVsAx0W8XTtcx6x9VP+0QeP6rRuBzB55h9hK6V+WUN4MrXVAQ3f G1XxTBPKIdGDfPI3MeRRU+MU+CVPTrwQQ1UM26/1vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx8bFh51zhN7bNoU9oVJpcROuWcDoFiENlPE8uGD7ugGqPvPAtgA6pGb9wkOGgKI+7Ms3WPVG8najPK3doQ5wk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2104:: with SMTP id l4mr3408871qkl.240.1581174945848; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 07:15:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:15:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9b24d059e11fad0" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f9b24d059e11fad0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 4:58 PM Rob Pike wrote: > Very nice talk with lots of good background. It made me think of the boxes > of DECTapes we had under the Unix room floor, and what we might have lost. > (Volunteers did manage to recover a couple of them, but time was short). > That makes me sad... :( It seems weird: in the Unix room were also all the binders of PDP-7 code that we've retyped in. I wonder if that was considered the archive for early unix, and that may be why we don't have enough early unix artifacts before the 5th edition? I know it was a bit of a rolling release, but I would have thought that ken or dmr would have made archival copies of the system around 'manual edition day' given all the other artifacts they saved. > PWB inaccuracy: The talk said that tools like grep and sed came from PWB, > but that's not true. They were original, as I'm sure Warner knows; he just > misspoke. > Yes. I got confused. In the talk the organizers flashed the time signs too early so I got nervous and rushed through some bits (it didn't help that this was the largest room I've spoken to and it was in the 'lunch coma' spot so some people fell asleep). I also never have a script for the talks, just a good understanding of the material and a rough list of points I'd like to make... And at the last minute I thought it would be better to characterize all the v4-based systems as the early forks and de-emphasize that SCCS Unix -> CB Unix was the first fork, so I thought I made that point a little more awkwardly than I would have liked. > Slightly more important: PWB also did not introduce the idea of the shell > (neither did Unix, for that matter), although there was a distinct shell > for that system that included the legendary pump operator, later superseded > by here documents. > Yes. I'd only mean that pwb enabled people to start writing real, non-trivial shell scripts. There's other scripts in the tree prior to Bourne Shell... There's several 'runit' scripts that look to build things pre-make. There's also sources to 'goto.c' which implemented 'goto label' by rewinding stdin until it finds the label then exiting (I presume the older shell would then start reading again from stdin). Or maybe I've totally missed the point of s1/goto.c... there's no comments in it. It is a bit of a stretch, though, you're right. > The flow from PWB back to the main research line was a trickle at best. We > had bad NIH in 1127. > That matches other sources I've seen: bug fixes flowed into research relatively easily. Performance fixes sometimes (though often not). Some drivers did. And only the occasional program. It's my belief that this slow level of flow is why AT&T shifted from the Research line to the Unix/TS line and merged Unix/TS and PWB into Unix/TS 3.0 (System III was 3.0.1) and roped other internal lines into Unix/TS 4.0 and/or System V. I also now wonder if we got the Bourne Shell because of NIH or because there was some clear technical defect in pwbsh that Steve Bourne was correcting... There were no env vars before V7, and I haven't looked at the pwb sh to see how that issue was handled. I'll have to also include the 'pump' operator in future talks. Warner --000000000000f9b24d059e11fad0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 4:58 PM Rob Pi= ke <robpike@gmail.com> wrote= :
Very nice talk with lots of good background. It made me think of th= e boxes of DECTapes we had under the Unix room floor, and what we might hav= e lost. (Volunteers did manage to recover a couple of them, but time was sh= ort).

That makes me sad... :( I= t seems weird: in the Unix room were also all the binders of PDP-7 code tha= t we've retyped in. I wonder if that was considered the archive for ear= ly unix, and that may be why we don't have enough early unix artifacts = before the 5th edition? I know it was a bit of a rolling release, but I wou= ld have thought that ken or dmr would have made archival copies of the syst= em around 'manual edition day' given all the other artifacts they s= aved.
=C2=A0
PWB inaccuracy: The talk said that tools like grep= and sed came from PWB, but that's not true. They were original, as I&#= 39;m sure Warner knows; he just misspoke.

=
Yes. I got confused. In the talk the organizers flashed the time= signs too early so I got nervous and rushed through some bits (it didn'= ;t help that this was the largest room I've spoken to and it was in the= 'lunch coma' spot so some people fell asleep). I also never have a= script for the talks, just a good understanding of the material=C2=A0and a= rough list of points I'd like to make...=C2=A0 And at the last minute = I thought it would be better to characterize all the v4-based systems as th= e early forks and de-emphasize that SCCS Unix -> CB Unix was the first f= ork, so I thought I made that point a little more awkwardly than I would ha= ve liked.
=C2=A0
Slightly more important: PWB also did not = introduce the idea of the shell (neither did Unix, for that matter), althou= gh there was a distinct shell for that system that included the legendary p= ump operator, later superseded by here documents.
<= div>
Yes. I'd only mean that pwb enabled people to start = writing real, non-trivial shell scripts. There's other scripts in the t= ree prior to Bourne Shell...=C2=A0 There's several 'runit' scri= pts that look to build things pre-make. There's also sources to 'go= to.c' which implemented 'goto label' by rewinding stdin until i= t finds the label then exiting (I presume the older shell would then start = reading again from stdin). Or maybe I've totally missed the point of s1= /goto.c... there's no comments in it. It is a bit of a stretch, though,= you're right.
=C2=A0
The flow from PWB back to the main re= search line was a trickle at best. We had bad NIH in 1127.

That matches other sources I've seen: bug f= ixes flowed into research relatively easily. Performance fixes sometimes (t= hough often not). Some drivers did. And only the occasional program. It'= ;s my belief that this slow level of flow is why AT&T shifted from the = Research line to the Unix/TS line and merged Unix/TS and PWB into Unix/TS 3= .0 (System III was 3.0.1) and roped other internal lines into Unix/TS 4.0 a= nd/or System V. I also now wonder if we got the Bourne Shell because of NIH= or because there was some clear technical defect in pwbsh that Steve Bourn= e was correcting... There were no env vars before V7, and I haven't loo= ked at the pwb sh to see how that issue was handled. I'll have to also = include the 'pump' operator in future talks.

Warner
--000000000000f9b24d059e11fad0-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 48651938 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:51:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B81A69CCBF; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:51:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428F39CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:51:03 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="uQV48y+S"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 659099CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:51:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com (mail-vs1-f46.google.com [209.85.217.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C49C19CCA9; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:50:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id x123so1847914vsc.2; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 13:50:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Etch49xdJc0bcNYahvGvxF8whW7SX3PrQAK7ydKnymI=; b=uQV48y+SepjpVTBfgC8BXz9EGhilQQWcuQie2Lqwz3yulTXA6M6eRYVE5Ya4Dlypkb 3uctiWP69EV4xHn8MFDjBik1bI8ptDuqmgykJznkf6TTDxdjmVJ88az6h2Eav4Au7wue jswbaQ7mW8UzazwbES8LrTdbiUHQS+uHzqSqhQP4Ptyr1M27S6disHJFdMN73fPYaVBS REjHE13nvRwlk24VmBVT+e/2DxoRwyWLWWNcLxnKgwkRuCGe7/8fCsmloD05LyDsAHfl BPx4VPwbHUQqM3xUxUwsMBFKtw7ZeUU5vNfWgYWllOEg/3E/XjJmaCP0nhf61JW+cwWF ZPDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Etch49xdJc0bcNYahvGvxF8whW7SX3PrQAK7ydKnymI=; b=CtdwoO6Ogz0Zfz+7tDlFw+LHfMXDDaI2dU3eW/z0aAlQZf411KL0NGmumf8QW19a4b 4sBIKJdpVx/WLYQkxRu9xJ+0b9Yv1mryFhDvfBWumu+CP6ziCmgH333Q0WW/8x7NsdoX 8pwwmmJywYp8H1EkjpBvi80m4PKl4zCHqRtxUO6JUVN+VcwyMo7hrCi1gQr6poJkEnWO o3nFg7ycUuXDWIVCq3qjzeE2DYE0lRtvqrqJJmpz28D0lUjyFidn+cLOQSaS7hagX3Lx Vw9WB51MvXuFp37xdyeREt/E1Ivh/n6WXn62u0x6NHoiM887uuXgV6SQMJLZCA+262IW g7Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV2UkhwDSdCfXTLR2tju14xnZYkJXDWJVR2N/tFQfI5N39XMyA4 DERPUrXvi6pIL92itWJKpe4LLJjO7+T1mlHf5Pg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxHJw29zCxF3Egba2C5ZGGsz7pVFapZwj0JryveCBV8OJ1E2bXzJhqTiNXSDKZ35dv/JLG4iliZFQ0cHgBEJQw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c90d:: with SMTP id w13mr2638825vsk.164.1581198658609; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 13:50:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:50:47 +1100 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005da8de059e178030" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005da8de059e178030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Yes. I'd only mean that pwb enabled people to start writing real, > non-trivial shell scripts. There's other scripts in the tree prior to > Bourne Shell... There's several 'runit' scripts that look to build things > pre-make. There's also sources to 'goto.c' which implemented 'goto label' > by rewinding stdin until it finds the label then exiting (I presume the > older shell would then start reading again from stdin). Or maybe I've > totally missed the point of s1/goto.c... there's no comments in it. It is a > bit of a stretch, though, you're right. > That's how goto worked, yes. The flow from PWB back to the main research line was a trickle at best. We >> had bad NIH in 1127. >> > > That matches other sources I've seen: bug fixes flowed into research > relatively easily. Performance fixes sometimes (though often not). Some > drivers did. And only the occasional program. It's my belief that this slow > level of flow is why AT&T shifted from the Research line to the Unix/TS > line and merged Unix/TS and PWB into Unix/TS 3.0 (System III was 3.0.1) and > roped other internal lines into Unix/TS 4.0 and/or System V. > I think the SysV/Research split is just another variant of NIH and separate organizations. The development folks did what they did because it helped them (or perhaps just to have fun?). Features in CB Unix bothered us (like the way init worked) and although we were pressured to take them, we resisted. USG was more accommodating. They (USG, Unix Support Group) were just that: a support group, and they were under immense pressure from their users in the Bell System to add features. There was outright mockery from us at how complex stty became, and then the ultimate insult arrived, ioctl. So System V was theirs, managed by them, owned by them. Occasionally we'd go to meetings there to try to convince them to do something differently. I remember a meeting where I tried to talk them out of some truly awful shared memory or IPC thing, but the details are hazy. I'm sure they ignored me anyway; in general they didn't listen to us unless their users were asking for something we had. > I also now wonder if we got the Bourne Shell because of NIH or because > there was some clear technical defect in pwbsh that Steve Bourne was > correcting... There were no env vars before V7, and I haven't looked at the > pwb sh to see how that issue was handled. I'll have to also include the > 'pump' operator in future talks. > Mashey's shell was better than the v6 shell, no question, but it was still pretty clunky and undisciplined. If I remember right, it was a hacked up v6 shell, but I'm not sure. Steve Bourne, who understands formal languages and was (clearly!) a fan of Algol 68, decided a more structured approach was necessary. People malign the look of the code, but his research shell was lovely. For v8 I ripped the IF ELIF macros out; they were just sugar I could scrape off. I put in shell functions, which Steve had wanted to do anyway, made them exportable (fought for that hard at a POSIX meeting, with Ken) and did some cleanups to the printing etc. so it worked well when you cut and paste from the terminal. All that was easy to do because the code was so clean. I learned a lot working on that program. The parser is a jewel. I still think it's a great piece of code, and I miss the v8 shell every day. The GNU "Bourne again" shell is missing all that stuff I did. Unfortunately, Steve's memory allocation trick, mallocking on faults, isn't portable, and I suspect the code will never run on a modern OS. Tom Duff's rc was done as a reaction to the shell being, despite its other glories, still a macro language. But that's another story. -rob --0000000000005da8de059e178030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes. I'd only mean that pwb enabled people to start writing rea= l, non-trivial shell scripts. There's other scripts in the tree prior t= o Bourne Shell...=C2=A0 There's several 'runit' scripts that lo= ok to build things pre-make. There's also sources to 'goto.c' w= hich implemented 'goto label' by rewinding stdin until it finds the= label then exiting (I presume the older shell would then start reading aga= in from stdin). Or maybe I've totally missed the point of s1/goto.c... = there's no comments in it. It is a bit of a stretch, though, you're= right.

That's how go= to worked, yes.

The flow from PWB back = to the main research line was a trickle at best. We had bad NIH in 1127.

That matches other sources I'= ve seen: bug fixes flowed into research relatively easily. Performance fixe= s sometimes (though often not). Some drivers did. And only the occasional p= rogram. It's my belief that this slow level of flow is why AT&T shi= fted from the Research line to the Unix/TS line and merged Unix/TS and PWB = into Unix/TS 3.0 (System III was 3.0.1) and roped other internal lines into= Unix/TS 4.0 and/or System V.

=
I think the SysV/Research split is just another variant of NIH and sep= arate organizations. The development folks did what they did because it hel= ped them (or perhaps just to have fun?). Features in CB Unix bothered us (l= ike the way init worked) and although we were pressured to take them, we re= sisted. USG was more accommodating. They (USG, Unix Support Group) were jus= t that: a support group, and they were under immense pressure from their us= ers in the Bell System to add features. There was outright mockery from us = at how complex stty became, and then the ultimate insult arrived, ioctl. So= System V was theirs, managed by them, owned by them. Occasionally we'd= go to meetings there to try to convince them to do something differently. = I remember a meeting where I tried to talk them out of some truly awful sha= red memory or IPC thing, but the details are hazy. I'm sure they ignore= d me anyway; in general they didn't listen to us unless their users wer= e asking for something we had.
=C2=A0
I also now wonder if we got the Bourne Shell because of NIH or becau= se there was some clear technical defect in pwbsh that Steve Bourne was cor= recting... There were no env vars before V7, and I haven't looked at th= e pwb sh to see how that issue was handled. I'll have to also include t= he 'pump' operator in future talks.

Mashey's shell was better than the v6 shell, no = question, but it was still pretty clunky and undisciplined. If I remember r= ight, it was a hacked up v6 shell, but I'm not sure.

Steve Bourne, who understands formal languages and was (clearly!) a = fan of Algol 68, decided a more structured approach was necessary. People m= align the look of the code, but his research shell was lovely. For v8 I rip= ped the IF ELIF macros out; they were just sugar I could scrape off. I put = in shell functions, which Steve had wanted to do anyway, made them exportab= le (fought for that hard at a POSIX meeting, with Ken) and did some cleanup= s to the printing etc. so it worked well when you cut and paste from the te= rminal. All that was easy to do because the code was so clean. I learned a = lot working on that program. The parser is a jewel. I still think it's = a great piece of code, and I miss the v8 shell every day. The GNU "Bou= rne again" shell is missing all that stuff I did.

=
Unfortunately, Steve's memory allocation trick, mallocking on faul= ts, isn't portable, and I suspect the code will never run on a modern O= S. Tom Duff's rc was done as a reaction to the shell being, despite its= other glories, still a macro language. But that's another story.
=

-rob

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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 132sm3227289ywt.92.2020.02.08.14.29.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike , Warner Losh References: From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:29:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv1-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.214217:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_TO_X2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_400_LESS, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 4:50 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > The GNU "Bourne > again" shell is missing all that stuff I did. Like what, for instance? -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id eff377ce for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 22:32:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E2ED29CCC0; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:32:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9133F9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:31:55 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="CtRQNZHq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 901689CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:31:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f48.google.com (mail-lf1-f48.google.com [209.85.167.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D62819CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:31:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f48.google.com with SMTP id y19so1643765lfl.9 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:31:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QmsTduWm++8ZTGoGSlfgij1uY6AKrmgQfQjOFVZdtDk=; b=CtRQNZHqNTBzKsM8lKaE/t5GQhiqq6bLXJCohEUh5pg2eEKcR7vGme+X41WjJHXZYm JjxJVd9mtk5ErwGdThQ2uXklIgmg2JYoTK4AgZtD5d7PJa9J1BfOlmTAtlhnBXj8SS7b fWcx2nLqShWxtTrjWQM+iM5VNdW/PGXS8X+JjRBvuYGQNazoRmbvf20llt5PcVX3xzHP Ld6hpzuBiw0stBfpwoAjL4ubra1W2dUAwktXH2VuJg94fwCjJFTlHp8XP1WrFH2WVpHR Z9vEyoz13q8/weZU0GV/rKo9Zrq+O0PT0PENdzVRcDwb5o7rgNHwt5TNwN7FItfTgtw9 7o1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QmsTduWm++8ZTGoGSlfgij1uY6AKrmgQfQjOFVZdtDk=; b=EuJCj1PuAFy22lZL5/yKB/FZDQnZdXjTsvjhaGEAa6PzI3wZvvqZYKeTDPKOvFJOry H7wZfOu7JH5+1MdXJS4jt/Zq9Dh810sg9JnHytIXImmSKm/Hgpn4Gvihm2zPVlWc/ycN icKzyb8fIX9hBytyLqdgLt8F1hTRrNvgFcfjcOaa2STTqHsgCyS/sruxolG4w+2MzYsB LDR1a8fh2IU2vBAQzsJvYPZuMM7zaMJqLvNYuxPtXGU7VeZygwyYjxWXmd28tkfxPI+s Z9Fy52L8WjpxzSG6irARvCOfS7/DkcIaKabYp4qtU1WKZTvOFFS8OYQ2FyALTbu+NpbS mBHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCGt+YuuLrP1kNXtrjwU0skwhl27wvpKQfCzcZbSi1DsgbkPY+ a506SnR40MoEGH2TmnQTGI5WwIS/re/WgeuB+Os= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy0Y6ksj19NMfXrepH0v72DeL4fw05qEWmFIkgyLZFM5L9NrSMqJyXgK83FXnsaAWO4AzCK+XkvinD5NvZTknM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c3ce:: with SMTP id t197mr2719314lff.174.1581201111289; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:31:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Richard Salz Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:31:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e92e3059e181260" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000008e92e3059e181260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Tom Duff's rc was done as a reaction to the shell being, despite its > other glories, still a macro language. But that's another story. > As a user of Byron's clone (it's been my login for ever), I would like to hear that story. --0000000000008e92e3059e181260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Tom D= uff's rc was done as a reaction to the shell being, despite its other g= lories, still a macro language. But that's another story.

As a u= ser of Byron's clone (it's been my login for ever), I would like to= hear that story.

--0000000000008e92e3059e181260-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9f19651c for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 22:55:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6F97A9CCB0; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:55:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC1C9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:55:00 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="blQ7+RO9"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 514499CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:54:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f41.google.com (mail-vs1-f41.google.com [209.85.217.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC4A29CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:54:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f41.google.com with SMTP id n27so1899850vsa.0 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:54:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kICRPP8UV/LlLu2DRjSBcb6ePoatFmB9zbap5AqlSdo=; b=blQ7+RO9GBr0id8yRVXF3NuVxur1eR5AIJ/Fx42KBLy7mK58UX26QTdCa8BmL5Wcg7 blaec8X7yY9nbv5JaLRtgHVYJYgIgeyzz0FKCYlefIZACkA4vQCnTCgdV5TlQvVUFRsL 3sQ8U5zX8tCMghRQgDFg5PeehdTCDbRTVq9tI9mhBY0eBkE0DETcE/y2PGdTUxIQxUp0 BkCntBjqGnOXV3NAsXpnXHgtFkn9+nTqFzaTQjuPbZi57UEi1EXXD0DI/9YGba2fAeYX wfMRRDAJd4FedVszf/G1rridHgU4obEkLAJZlVHEARezjFaNqUZMrvYX03IfKuyErDIO rpiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kICRPP8UV/LlLu2DRjSBcb6ePoatFmB9zbap5AqlSdo=; b=Ach0g4CWHQP4lB2WABnE2acKRdcyh45YrqbMi9P1HLpWnp7+LzNZWfmpa+vr5gLs8w gdWPNZp2ve/Ys7rHRGk0IBn10vbsvh3X2g7uoIThj/Se87P+kE2XKfS+dkrBpKDlZv6d LWnBEWpTlnXsoLHzwL7DWWeiG/3/dU28xLaR0C4bU8P2ihyTe8r5JwlSjN+pIdfFcsU5 8BqkAyUGFM6dgrZzy/ZsbNSUK8IVaSMyHQjGotwPh/638O1wbmMAfgHxxmVSryVJ3hI5 jiZHlYOfRTXits2YKPg60dRXlUO/dkCWQ4mRcxEeSuxDZiCtp9BXmJCbpKqoYejqSXhF bWSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU8ma4MNkVcsqsM271uMA7NFn1soLEDm9zDVyyUM4r+kuDwAcys uLkiqz+2O4YMlTKFFNx/TYpBvINv7SZFcNK9LzI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJNyXEx178qJUUVU3qVz1o4sjtgysbHIGygEc2r4RDbpP/eyARV8YTJGbKJ8+daCA7M1vY8mmj+3vztLdf7ZA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:4a1:: with SMTP id r1mr3072897vsa.53.1581202495746; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> In-Reply-To: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:54:44 +1100 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013b7e6059e1865d1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000013b7e6059e1865d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it works well with an editable typescript. -rob On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 9:29 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/8/20 4:50 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > The GNU "Bourne > > again" shell is missing all that stuff I did. > > Like what, for instance? > > > -- > ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer > ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates > Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ > --00000000000013b7e6059e1865d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like exportable functions and output that's valid inpu= t, so it works well with an editable typescript.

-rob


On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 9:29 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/8/20 4:50 PM, Rob Pike = wrote:
> The GNU "Bourne
> again" shell is missing all that stuff I did.

Like what, for instance?


--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r12sm3237984ywg.26.2020.02.08.15.02.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:02:30 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:02:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv3-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.214217:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_400_LESS, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 5:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it works well > with an editable typescript. Bash has both of those things. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 09b0b0ea for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:11:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 26E0E9CCC2; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:11:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829279CCAD; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:11:22 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="rJr6W67+"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D052D9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:11:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f180.google.com (mail-vk1-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F71F9CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:11:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id c129so815490vkh.7 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:11:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yByHtJZFAU6OHCWN6tm+XtcxDc6OJDVGFc8uGSirgd0=; b=rJr6W67+0Uth2nEvsIRZLAKK5G9sBAASX/czfA25Dkfc3kq34VQ5sE13sLQ1+UwuVF 2r8u42SdQMozhd4+3DOGoM0kM97TSnY6UEAsMNzwqDZ3WtqnNOnSQt03NqPtnzUxvDF9 Kkun1n/W8Y5ifa151a+odAOSHD4jEQRTqK8lZ3EqbXJUbk3rHWDm3oxQvCN5PbuGo6Eo vhXCVRX0c5Q935fmxhI7LZm1MG5pAmz+ZXtA760frdI+kR4hSIAVtzJ5VXVffHteFh8/ 8haFgUrwow9GSyusNk1KOg+wEO+MW3tgprYUCetlj+iEeen6tMZAV3tKM2U6/ayOmWoB Xz4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yByHtJZFAU6OHCWN6tm+XtcxDc6OJDVGFc8uGSirgd0=; b=XM/2max3OfPdK/C6REyB3+gXmPx6s0NF7+UVtIXeXAMkXloOWdHogFIZfqCvfGfQK3 kxEfnTmDl32SsCAceYf4fAFjq4O+OXDJFxF9lTjqZsiFXJk6faSewKZPuTr2kW7pX1Xi 2mTRcdOnQg7ffBLBgGsxEiwfiXWKb028hBrz+y8OPn3n5WPXCl+gP2j8+Zcf8U01rKxa z9Hy5iRNZS4QBUSb34bKvLYHoaoqwGpRqvDXdRl1c7FYKMDWQ4hHExgJpLwRrVSIGHCN II6PaVbchGyg8wAUeAFLSCQ5jU+4K9nM5vEs7QCp4+xPd6jUsnW/PW/7gVHeEyJyIjUW mELA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU2bkeNdZ+rPBw5wTtqCqAnHlhWkuLzicHZSOdT375uXBMh0noO Y7JALJLSyHzTIyJmJgLVlzAPVFItfYZUOIszBwQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzAjGzh4+PHF45qfx8Jr3tWd5NdGVjTBPQ61krxyPa/Dcbs0TP1BnZgl2c3b+Sv5QWqu3ul4eiJ/Vu7xemfkJI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:40b:: with SMTP id e11mr3138772vkd.21.1581203477209; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:11:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:11:06 +1100 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093a5a6059e189f09" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000093a5a6059e189f09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Not for me it doesn't. % bash bash-3.2$ function f() { echo hi } bash-3.2$ export f bash-3.2$ bash bash-3.2$ f bash-3.2$ I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I added it as a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a way to guarantee you get the builtin on execution. How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I could edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff connected seamlessly that made it so compelling. -rob On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/8/20 5:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it works well > > with an editable typescript. > > Bash has both of those things. > > -- > ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer > ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates > Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ > --00000000000093a5a6059e189f09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not for me it doesn't.

% b= ash

bas= h-3.2$ function f() {

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo hi

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

bas= h-3.2$ export f

bas= h-3.2$ bash

bas= h-3.2$ f

bas= h-3.2$=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"gmail-p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-v= ariant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:nor= mal;font-family:"Lucida Grande Mono550";color:rgb(0,0,0)">

I added the 'builtin' co= mmand, which did leave the labs. But I added it as a way for the "what= is" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a way to guarantee = you get the builtin on execution.


How do I get bash to print the function as (sh= ell) source code, so I could edit it and play with it again? It was the syn= ergy of all this stuff connected seamlessly that made it so compelling.


<= /p>

-rob

<= p class=3D"gmail-p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-v= ariant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:nor= mal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">


On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/8/20 5:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it wor= ks well
> with an editable typescript.

Bash has both of those things.

--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
--00000000000093a5a6059e189f09-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9d0ebed1 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:14:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 910199CCB9; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:14:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08B99CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:13:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="louQEzej"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0947F9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:13:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D8439CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:13:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id h32so1191896uah.4 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:13:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zjI7R0V0tbqXVFDXO0fbIMyYFTRctjcnyA1HoW4lb1k=; b=louQEzejv1xG6Sdwvyjf/TDchihfgMTcrMbnJt1bJjKvbGu9LgUxpVeV25iqXY+DOW AV1SjqsHGhI6Lx9TSvhBuUYExoIWJ071iqy/Xi9Cn58Dxo9mxMnsCWyxUIGSYuperpmQ Nb8tbrA5Fxec/43fTPHepTDidMr9rut+U3bS79gCyeaUwuM7Rc/Fd5C8TwjzsVQlonQN f4OPgbHwpiFLxsBYm/gdPhYCv3QerfRO9ZIF2+2Q/JS/zF/yHfmZassaiUgnwxx9H0LL HEuhYa2qGp21ND+5jAiFsylm02K132M9mwuPLpHqLJlH58g4t4xof0NxYXVG2/kpGpqb AavA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zjI7R0V0tbqXVFDXO0fbIMyYFTRctjcnyA1HoW4lb1k=; b=koy/27tabitLoKeivpJU26lViDFDH8UJy6GF63ycPyLLc1BwnlVLktixhdh0mC/FaM 4VuJFEXkFRW3wPTuwWMp6wnrrQeefZjs3j8iNFTL6vntvsWXDBBsNTgDl+fxWGbt18Pf JE5f3azAqp/4O1IDRVnVlSh5cS6+JhEaTwC55cyks0zZS5EZz2f2mH32VuWfiyZg63OY TVfnSxk1sUGpJhNGjXzzaQ8BYNfopcXaV6xC6mjTmZ62MfpVOqEwMwYBgjSltIpZKyjm n6R47bAZOjObZC1eN5/pauXupFYmq5yvieDA7NaJbjgXnste4eFuGebMoCAolDCMdIv0 zSPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrflXkUi+WLmW+ZbGopbuTnyZ3Qs0YUTM2+0UK1rJMEL/XP35R QCYKvHLYhVMsmnvMmHdJxBkcN4SuVtV2dUanzxQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwL30C2LEiCFCTa8jwGgoxGmmboNN7v0WyaNdlvjNA4o4TbGVptrFGZ2oaaiNcwhhcMBRJEqrU8LEGDj9oNo4g= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1d03:: with SMTP id j3mr2947887uak.6.1581203618508; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:13:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:13:27 +1100 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ffb3cf059e18a79a" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ffb3cf059e18a79a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Here is rc, which absorbed most of that behavior from the v8 shell: % rc % fn f { echo hi } % whatis f fn f {echo hi} % whatis path path=(. /Users/r/bin /usr/local/bin /usr/bin /bin /usr/sbin /sbin /usr/local/go/bin /Applications/Keybase.app/Contents/SharedSupport/bin /usr/local/plan9/bin) % rc % # subshell % f hi % On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:11 AM Rob Pike wrote: > Not for me it doesn't. > > % bash > > bash-3.2$ function f() { > > echo hi > > } > > bash-3.2$ export f > > bash-3.2$ bash > > bash-3.2$ f > > bash-3.2$ > > > I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I added it as > a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a way > to guarantee you get the builtin on execution. > > > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I could > edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling. > > > -rob > > > > On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > >> On 2/8/20 5:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote: >> > Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it works >> well >> > with an editable typescript. >> >> Bash has both of those things. >> >> -- >> ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer >> ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates >> Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ >> > --000000000000ffb3cf059e18a79a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is rc, which absorbed most of that behavior from the = v8 shell:

% rc

% fn f { echo hi }

% whatis= f

fn f {echo hi}

% whatis path

path=3D(. /Users/r/bin /usr/local/bin /usr/bin /bin /usr/sbin /sbin= /usr/local/go/bin /Applications/Keybase.app/Contents/SharedSupport/bin /us= r/local/plan9/bin)

% rc

% # subshell

% f

hi

%= =C2=A0




=
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:11 AM Rob P= ike <robpike@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Not for me it doesn't.

% bash

bash-3.2$ function f() {

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo hi=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

bash-3.2$ export f

bash-3.2$ bash

bash-3.2$ f

bash-3.2$=C2=A0


I added the 'builtin' command, which did lea= ve the labs. But I added it as a way for the "whatis" command to = show a builtin, as well as allowing a way to guarantee you get the builtin = on execution.


How do I g= et bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I could edit it an= d play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff connected seamle= ssly that made it so compelling.


-rob



On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 = at 10:02 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/8/20 5:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> Like exportable functions and output that's valid input, so it wor= ks well
> with an editable typescript.

Bash has both of those things.

--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
--000000000000ffb3cf059e18a79a-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5fbe6d99 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:22:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0450E9CCCA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:22:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346649CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:21:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 827CF9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:21:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACBCD9CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:21:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: (qmail 76786 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Feb 2020 15:21:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:21:36 -0800 From: Kurt H Maier To: Rob Pike Message-ID: <20200208232136.GA21706@wopr> References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sun, Feb 09, 2020 at 10:11:06AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > bash-3.2$ export f > You need export -f f here. > > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I > could edit it and play with it again? $ type f f is a function f () { echo hi } I don't like bash, but it has every feature ever thought of. Maybe I could better phrase that: I don't like bash, because it has every feature ever thought of. khm From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 070ddcfc for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:27:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 49DC79CCBF; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:27:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970099CCAD; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:26:57 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=case.edu header.i=@case.edu header.b="6OjhWexl"; 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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z14sm3342765ywc.53.2020.02.08.15.26.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:26:52 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:26:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv1-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.224217:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __FRAUD_MONEY_CURRENCY_DOLLAR, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __FORWARDED_MSG, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 6:11 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > Not for me it doesn't. > > % bash > > bash-3.2$ function f() { > >     echo hi > >     } > > bash-3.2$ export f > bash-3.2$ bash > bash-3.2$ f > bash-3.2$ jenna(1)$ echo $BASH_VERSION 5.0.11(6)-release jenna(1)$ f() { echo f; } jenna(1)$ export -f f jenna(1)$ bash jenna(2)$ f f jenna(2)$ It works the same in Mac OS X's bash-3.2. > I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I added it as > a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a way > to guarantee you get the builtin on execution. Bash uses `type' to tell whether something is a builtin. How does `builtin' say whether or not a command is builtin? The output with no arguments? > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I could > edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling. > jenna(2)$ declare -pf f f () { echo f } declare -fx f If it weren't exported, you wouldn't get the `declare' command appended there. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id b1b406d1 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:28:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1D7D29CCDC; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:28:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD029CCB0; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:27:16 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="ntbd7mfT"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D22629CCB0; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:27:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f173.google.com (mail-vk1-f173.google.com [209.85.221.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B7B39CCAA for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:26:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b2so261912vkk.4 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:26:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8vig3AIszLq65SIaUu2QmfIa9nOToejq2OJoiyd+Vws=; b=ntbd7mfT36XniHD6/RZS5q+t5PbunW96jyTmovW8FhU4K44Z04PdFWXANcQewqb7nA Egf1FJ9IoCuMBUKcQAHeXkECu7n78R15v6CxLp40O1MHN6HIJ1QbMI1cJMi6lAcOslbC A7c7vSvhxsh5wieqXsi8dZJ6UmQa2xcnXH58i6gN4zcKlvyRqTbRpj7+wLNyCsxJEXHn jvMoupWNNcZZZ9BeD8/4TebIGMUSpsTIpPQE+J9sURjxg1dAJ4iU1nkwK83CEh9a26Wi GcZaf6rDnSGHvRTDWpkz8XAjUjS2pL8YABkqtHnCJnzWfQsSbXlUSRXqO3bCrujz/Tip tz9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8vig3AIszLq65SIaUu2QmfIa9nOToejq2OJoiyd+Vws=; b=RE1z0e08pDT78HAPXY7YjxP8Njg0mVnhhcoBn3aQp29vjj1vqw3lpOah7h2m/4PKO1 ipTFUaqkxdHYvRt69wr/fWojzIRhUVQIlAJnCgweCYCMJQcHKv7hsmu0kkv4wSGz4xs0 rG5su1ubK0FQrwJ+zEYY479RSVjGp5qs3oeqDiG8DopnS420MHnfjLZ/3eT0cClo3d0c 5m6lDhxpBBNC1qz1g7jFP25yld0EGR22kkvGBHRgEsrA2933k6jm1IQrcANbrEeI5Osg WN2lyudsJk7AElJrHHcEHhyPAvLAezUtrpl3luJFJzeM1qywobdbj6+E6NlHdOopKIT0 9+Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFLNuFq7kHQ3QaER/rechikGCVJyaps4tmeslvZ69E903Fu32P ehSJziF01hzI9UcHYHR0yAOYOyjRWhxSGeaQ4HVZ4xfZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqweJkIaWjc7KqOwDqWHHp3bDvrRar9CFsS6MViG5BvULJkvMk4Ju3+wfl8vql6akTfIaqMm1WMppAcLW1A3kj4= X-Received: by 2002:ac5:c5c2:: with SMTP id g2mr3048940vkl.82.1581204416643; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:26:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <20200208232136.GA21706@wopr> In-Reply-To: <20200208232136.GA21706@wopr> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:26:45 +1100 Message-ID: To: Kurt H Maier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092469e059e18d7dc" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000092469e059e18d7dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That 'f is a function' header weakens the idea substantially. Anyway, it's good to see these ideas picked up, if late and imperfectly. My work on the v8 shell was a long time ago. -rob On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:21 AM Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Sun, Feb 09, 2020 at 10:11:06AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > > > bash-3.2$ export f > > > > You need export -f f here. > > > > > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I > > could edit it and play with it again? > > $ type f > f is a function > f () > { > echo hi > } > > > I don't like bash, but it has every feature ever thought of. Maybe I > could better phrase that: I don't like bash, because it has every > feature ever thought of. > > khm > --00000000000092469e059e18d7dc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That 'f is a function' header weakens the idea sub= stantially.

Anyway, it's good to see these ideas pic= ked up, if late and imperfectly. My work on the v8 shell was a long time ag= o.

-rob


On Sun, Feb 9, 202= 0 at 10:21 AM Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops= .net> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 09, 2020 at 10:11:06AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> bash-3.2$ export f
>

You need export -f f here.

>
> How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I > could edit it and play with it again?

$ type f
f is a function
f ()
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo hi
}


I don't like bash, but it has every feature ever thought of.=C2=A0 Mayb= e I
could better phrase that:=C2=A0 I don't like bash, because it has every=
feature ever thought of.

khm
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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g190sm3230038ywf.41.2020.02.08.15.28.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:28:29 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike , Kurt H Maier References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <20200208232136.GA21706@wopr> From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: <8b299456-5807-f7f3-0d20-7900cb32f64a@case.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:28:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv4-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.222417:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_TO_X2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_400_LESS, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 6:26 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > That 'f is a function' header weakens the idea substantially. Use `declare -fp f' to get what you want. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 16dc55e7 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:29:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E8E579CCC7; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:29:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1109CCAE; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:29:19 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="nsamoWhJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3D8809CCAE; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:29:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f51.google.com (mail-vs1-f51.google.com [209.85.217.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57A6E9CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:29:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f51.google.com with SMTP id x123so1918529vsc.2 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:29:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d2k99oD94WuDsv521VkRbcCxuLnVI2RheYyU9sk9Lz8=; b=nsamoWhJK028JKqawLnIRI3/6sG3qUDdVK+WIWS+t8DePw6YicNHGEZF6uD7W5GvSR 2uAWiVeZJ6JcKPDf9gm4L6DuzB9SL2fbXfKj9SpI76b09VMvZwMz16sdEyviF5Xx6O7B z7SuzjmjKQZ/8oNiUj+dZLkqzjpo+Hoh5bqXtPZsGnACeWWPVAaEhdvWHGtIJwleV9Lx HB6BlrSIlKJsr6Ju1kXFy20nvoXA62YCDHh1gYjuiiVXi/c/onttggaUl2hNMTjp8/yn /nrsUbTyxSzDA8tPcxUOpk73D21bgzgTCswnOMSBW6HC0SKsqqTizxxzHpG84/CiPKqs 5TKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d2k99oD94WuDsv521VkRbcCxuLnVI2RheYyU9sk9Lz8=; b=IUaLonN7jhdn9MCrUS4PaYVBwZ8pE3bYWmQFZ0jGDylpA9yxZCt9JX/bCBanYknlIp fAUFWmKx8Cf9ulyXrm7VvTq9m9hDtBEnanZELf/xrh7AEVfmn3vVRk1Jzs8EYGnylC40 VjkqKju76nxGj+o2rykISG6/A458iWDjy27EUW7XvVV82+Ldh0AiQNeReeqGuzCk3NS4 VLj93KIzX44SCw+RjeAxHbczc6rVRmoy/EIRVrM97XiwjMDTEZ8Hj5oVWPTngfo5UrBt N6oBi5BHrhq+8u5smBjGmnQuYCF6ruASXf/IBzxoYxr3pwSzQy0kc7yCaiKRjlKE5i+7 WLYg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVBDEeXyldyEqxlTt1HDjAe8HX0sq+Nevq21PTmiBcf88VlEn9+ yyFFVnDTlg/Y2XtPZ0nVVyLSnRMAEMni8wb8N4w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyMb1oZMalRL0VqjrJED98Dv4Ity20iE2XaOpHh24VlZeMGlUFSGuYfUg6oxIomdhCGRj1n1i73uuHoUNuRLPA= X-Received: by 2002:a67:b303:: with SMTP id a3mr2844204vsm.141.1581204553471; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:29:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> In-Reply-To: <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:29:02 +1100 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba1b35059e18df57" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ba1b35059e18df57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" % rc % whatis cd builtin cd % It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, free of decoration and ready to use. In today's Unix (I use the term loosely) world, the phrase "free of decoration" is apostasy. -rob On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:26 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/8/20 6:11 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > Not for me it doesn't. > > > > % bash > > > > bash-3.2$ function f() { > > > > echo hi > > > > } > > > > bash-3.2$ export f > > bash-3.2$ bash > > bash-3.2$ f > > bash-3.2$ > > jenna(1)$ echo $BASH_VERSION > 5.0.11(6)-release > jenna(1)$ f() { echo f; } > jenna(1)$ export -f f > jenna(1)$ bash > jenna(2)$ f > f > jenna(2)$ > > It works the same in Mac OS X's bash-3.2. > > > I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I added it > as > > a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a > way > > to guarantee you get the builtin on execution. > > Bash uses `type' to tell whether something is a builtin. How does `builtin' > say whether or not a command is builtin? The output with no arguments? > > > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I > could > > edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff > > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling. > > > > jenna(2)$ declare -pf f > f () > { > echo f > } > declare -fx f > > If it weren't exported, you wouldn't get the `declare' command appended > there. > > -- > ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer > ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates > Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ > --000000000000ba1b35059e18df57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

% r= c

% w= hatis cd

bui= ltin cd

%=C2=A0


It's much simpler this way. The output is the execu= table input, free of decoration and ready to use.


In today's Unix (I use the term loosely) world, the = phrase "free of decoration" is apostasy.=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"gmail-p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-v= ariant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:nor= mal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">

-rob



On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:26 AM Chet Ram= ey <chet.ramey@case.edu> w= rote:
On 2/8/20 = 6:11 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> Not for me it doesn't.
>
> % bash
>
> bash-3.2$ function f() {
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo hi
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
>
> bash-3.2$ export f
> bash-3.2$ bash
> bash-3.2$ f
> bash-3.2$

jenna(1)$ echo $BASH_VERSION
5.0.11(6)-release
jenna(1)$ f() { echo f; }
jenna(1)$ export -f f
jenna(1)$ bash
jenna(2)$ f
f
jenna(2)$

It works the same in Mac OS X's bash-3.2.

> I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I= added it as
> a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as= allowing a way
> to guarantee you get the builtin on execution.

Bash uses `type' to tell whether something is a builtin. How does `buil= tin'
say whether or not a command is builtin? The output with no arguments?

> How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I c= ould
> edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling.
>

jenna(2)$ declare -pf f
f ()
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo f
}
declare -fx f

If it weren't exported, you wouldn't get the `declare' command = appended
there.

--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
--000000000000ba1b35059e18df57-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 21210bd0 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:36:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 786249CCB4; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:36:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46309CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:35:33 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="OONbWaNw"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 232489CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:35:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com (mail-qt1-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48C6E9CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:35:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id r5so1035262qtt.9 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:35:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=woIuBFN8s+WGYlg6JkDzdl6Ucr0DZPxb2B3C1np9PzE=; b=OONbWaNwkP2cSeNz4whBbAx4NzAN0ghcQEmw4gXUMs2WSsowIZdnf/i/n4L6RhDik+ nn1QC/UoKaPZWvhgGy7j92tWosRB0V8kOiGKz282Ssdi1DuN7Kr1TRhUPLI4x9KtozSP 52wZJaaqRn3k8AB9zrgBWRYxIk7srzIW5pV5HCg+QY1+t+BbD84bjJ44ieMhobvsg8Ac E0Rb5HkkWSyBTIs8O3bl8kGRvz09AhtyYiN3csOx0EGU5IxVe/8TpC6po8V1h2q50sIu ZG7UT3q1i/mgRgVj012P1ZPnDMmCjzh2r81uYGrJmshvo3BSRzF1LxvmsNExQup/ieVw F7tA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=woIuBFN8s+WGYlg6JkDzdl6Ucr0DZPxb2B3C1np9PzE=; b=ByRVAq+1uHpL2h01Hq0iA3bnNersqZsxBJvbKuRPd0BYLNkUBlOk75nQflV3RDeNqY Zo5aY5vWttSCgtofQw8kuXNXR2ojlD+qojut0/ryWRt6ekrH4P/CQ47OYifVKfSMsbvJ nnN1mREzZTtWinIhdOUCiUhGtPsyhBFeiEh/goEjRvsHJWyErAVYiTBMWTPV/YLF++T5 LBGX6O8xSn9jJNBfWynyufnh6QF5LK1fZH4V+/pWgcX7vScYlw2q0b/kMQEIy3fgIYCP q3Nw0mkOtIKfZ3KwWuiLrssdJGF15uMN1gwwn7pp7+2a+w+H78CiXHdvy2p6xApnJL1o xgeg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW8/WLbWyfTjfBAWRTtZAFsRl/gEIzbXzExhev5iwxXEowHF1X4 CCNSVR3dRQg4vL/MmxKFd4Mpald2h9lqIQn+ZO30dw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwXXL3NP7cXspsLI0xJz7S2T7Vgf2YHkssHfJmFIMR6XnmFpeeyP0Dr3ZERLsRIijPFH9DVHynfPYSBIIFmffo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:78c:: with SMTP id l12mr4426856qth.187.1581204930387; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:35:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 16:35:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031783e059e18f655" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000031783e059e18f655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 8, 2020, 4:29 PM Rob Pike wrote: > % rc > > % whatis cd > > builtin cd > > % > > > It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, free of > decoration and ready to use. > > > In today's Unix (I use the term loosely) world, the phrase "free of > decoration" is apostasy. > A number of utilities have a special flag to use in shell scripts to remove the decorations. I both like and loath this design pattern. Warner -rob > > > > On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:26 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > >> On 2/8/20 6:11 PM, Rob Pike wrote: >> > Not for me it doesn't. >> > >> > % bash >> > >> > bash-3.2$ function f() { >> > >> > echo hi >> > >> > } >> > >> > bash-3.2$ export f >> > bash-3.2$ bash >> > bash-3.2$ f >> > bash-3.2$ >> >> jenna(1)$ echo $BASH_VERSION >> 5.0.11(6)-release >> jenna(1)$ f() { echo f; } >> jenna(1)$ export -f f >> jenna(1)$ bash >> jenna(2)$ f >> f >> jenna(2)$ >> >> It works the same in Mac OS X's bash-3.2. >> >> > I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I added it >> as >> > a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as allowing a >> way >> > to guarantee you get the builtin on execution. >> >> Bash uses `type' to tell whether something is a builtin. How does >> `builtin' >> say whether or not a command is builtin? The output with no arguments? >> >> > How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I >> could >> > edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff >> > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling. >> > >> >> jenna(2)$ declare -pf f >> f () >> { >> echo f >> } >> declare -fx f >> >> If it weren't exported, you wouldn't get the `declare' command appended >> there. >> >> -- >> ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer >> ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates >> Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ >> > --00000000000031783e059e18f655 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Feb 8, 2020, 4:29 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

% rc

% whatis cd

builtin cd

%=C2=A0


= It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, free of= decoration and ready to use.


In today's Unix (I use the term loo= sely) world, the phrase "free of decoration" is apostasy.=C2=A0


=
A number of utilities have a special flag to use in shell= scripts to remove the decorations. I both like and loath this design patte= rn.=C2=A0

Warner=C2=A0

-rob=



On Sun, Feb 9,= 2020 at 10:26 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/8/20 6:11 PM, Rob= Pike wrote:
> Not for me it doesn't.
>
> % bash
>
> bash-3.2$ function f() {
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo hi
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
>
> bash-3.2$ export f
> bash-3.2$ bash
> bash-3.2$ f
> bash-3.2$

jenna(1)$ echo $BASH_VERSION
5.0.11(6)-release
jenna(1)$ f() { echo f; }
jenna(1)$ export -f f
jenna(1)$ bash
jenna(2)$ f
f
jenna(2)$

It works the same in Mac OS X's bash-3.2.

> I added the 'builtin' command, which did leave the labs. But I= added it as
> a way for the "whatis" command to show a builtin, as well as= allowing a way
> to guarantee you get the builtin on execution.

Bash uses `type' to tell whether something is a builtin. How does `buil= tin'
say whether or not a command is builtin? The output with no arguments?

> How do I get bash to print the function as (shell) source code, so I c= ould
> edit it and play with it again? It was the synergy of all this stuff > connected seamlessly that made it so compelling.
>

jenna(2)$ declare -pf f
f ()
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo f
}
declare -fx f

If it weren't exported, you wouldn't get the `declare' command = appended
there.

--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/
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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v7sm3337940ywh.62.2020.02.08.15.36.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:36:52 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: <20da6a39-c07b-fe42-c9fb-43bf3c54d179@case.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:36:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv1-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.224217:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __FORWARDED_MSG, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, BODY_SIZE_500_599, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 6:29 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > % rc > > % whatis cd > > builtin cd > > %  > > > It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, free of > decoration and ready to use. OK. `whatis' is a non-starter as a builtin, but bash ships with an example `whatis' shell function that does this. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d9e60715 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:54:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 64A949CCC3; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:54:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230C19CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:54:31 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="JXXd4YKS"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C8F3A9CCAA; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:54:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f45.google.com (mail-ua1-f45.google.com [209.85.222.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54DD59CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:54:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f45.google.com with SMTP id o42so1190224uad.10 for ; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:54:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cnZG5yjXmJKNquXoV38PIWVQHN5eT3YS2txZ6FZ/vtQ=; b=JXXd4YKSA5M7y5aJafMrbQghfSn+2/qtlwaCH4zcGBBmnJRNR7LgmtQ0CmnkaZW0Dx uwjGZGsFd1ISnagADbocAC1Q6yqJJsHg2m8wg+b6Xir66olq7nQPV7nKW3K2Q5dmVPc5 wxaGEfO72PFGAA9UOi9k/z5YrT1u/u++/iZmAxX6C3go5F7XUcauf40w1mPLpZ+1bq6P Hrc6bDvo8QKhYPDhHJGypEo6YRXjzcXisgGJUuksAMxgfxwFvNKCahj0l6KSYA0v+Fg6 VFIm6ArbIDohn7BjpnZrJOErS3VQSOdc8BaSoM/uXtvWJXKIGjsG7Ar3dgSxo1YuW33q tBKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cnZG5yjXmJKNquXoV38PIWVQHN5eT3YS2txZ6FZ/vtQ=; b=CFiW9Go/X1jEBRp8JwTedyzjOjXVk/nlPqNbxOO+b+lFKyJYGtwVxzAfBDIxnrA1M/ UhV1DZH3+0E/t0udCleZdW0Z4LZznSVZ65Qzu3xMwn2QM2wnAnEFCPzQUgJAgOcqfaw1 +g7EnOOGcDF+hw5ManweolPYL4mqqVbPYdw4WScG9JP4bFRuGhkRWqmDScEoXW0f1qcZ NEvy6d5SGB19y1Y35cgbhwHhoa1pwwB5w76GmfHKPYwCttQgxY6DZ7WHAl/eeCFB1LfT jH+PSamvn7TITNPeYr4RYHqvcC/dp4w7fInWYKvEElHjZkvaHaD4UZJzi5557fpMo6o0 ezJw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXuQI/gDIOzI5vvrePVZH18g2mYaDGhkURWesVpgQgLDddsce/c 51+9wln8kISOhPtKyDzeR6ExjEb8PaO3KSfMFdBuYht8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJSyeuBuLXmhiiFMjFD7sRs4Z1nmdOl+GdMmOPo0r4nPUf0ewOx/5BFR1ToUYtxlG5GKWf2pF5f6U/yBs23ik= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:7612:: with SMTP id o18mr2763076uap.73.1581206067310; Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:54:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> <20da6a39-c07b-fe42-c9fb-43bf3c54d179@case.edu> In-Reply-To: <20da6a39-c07b-fe42-c9fb-43bf3c54d179@case.edu> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:54:16 +1100 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f575ec059e193901" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f575ec059e193901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Well, "whatis" was a fine starter in 1983. I'm not saying anything should change. This is a history list. -rob On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:36 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/8/20 6:29 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > % rc > > > > % whatis cd > > > > builtin cd > > > > % > > > > > > It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, free of > > decoration and ready to use. > > OK. `whatis' is a non-starter as a builtin, but bash ships with an example > `whatis' shell function that does this. > > -- > ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer > ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates > Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ > --000000000000f575ec059e193901 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, "whatis" was a fine starter in 1983.
<= br>
I'm not saying anything should change. This is a history = list.

-rob


On Sun, Feb 9, 2020= at 10:36 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ram= ey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/8/20 6:29 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> % rc
>
> % whatis cd
>
> builtin cd
>
> %=C2=A0
>
>
> It's much simpler this way. The output is the executable input, fr= ee of
> decoration and ready to use.

OK. `whatis' is a non-starter as a builtin, but bash ships with an exam= ple
`whatis' shell function that does this.

--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
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([2605:a000:1223:e2ef:d4db:b872:e934:2785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j184sm3465255ywa.39.2020.02.08.16.11.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Pike References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> <20da6a39-c07b-fe42-c9fb-43bf3c54d179@case.edu> From: Chet Ramey Autocrypt: addr=chet.ramey@case.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBEEOsGwRBACFa0A1oa71HSZLWxAx0svXzhOZNQZOzqHmSuGOG92jIpQpr8DpvgRh40Yp AwdcXb8QG1J5yGAKeevNE1zCFaA725vGSdHUyypHouV0xoWwukYO6qlyyX+2BZU+okBUqoWQ koWxiYaCSfzB2Ln7pmdys1fJhcgBKf3VjWCjd2XJTwCgoFJOwyBFJdugjfwjSoRSwDOIMf0D /iQKqlWhIO1LGpMrGX0il0/x4zj0NAcSwAk7LaPZbN4UPjn5pqGEHBlf1+xDDQCkAoZ/VqES GZragl4VqJfxBr29Ag0UDvNbUbXoxQsARdero1M8GiAIRc50hj7HXFoERwenbNDJL86GPLAQ OTGOCa4W2o29nFfFjQrsrrYHzVtyA/9oyKvTeEMJ7NA3VJdWcmn7gOu0FxEmSNhSoV1T4vP2 1Wf7f5niCCRKQLNyUy0wEApQi4tSysdz+AbgAc0b/bHYVzIf2uO2lIEZQNNt+3g2bmXgloWm W5fsm/di50Gm1l1Na63d3RZ00SeFQos6WEwLUHEB0yp6KXluXLLIZitEJLQwQ2hldCBSYW1l eSAoQ2FzZSBzdGFuZGFyZCkgPGNoZXQucmFtZXlAY2FzZS5lZHU+iF8EExECAB8FAkPi19EC GwMHCwkIBwMCAQMVAgMDFgIBAh4BAheAAAoJELtYafBk6nSrelkAn31Gsuib7GcCZHbv5L5t VKYR9LklAJ4hzUHKA49Z0QXR+qCb80osIcmPSbkBDQRBDrBvEAQAkK6TAOKBEM+EC4j6V/7o /riVZqcgU5cid2qG9TXdwNtD9a3kvA/ObZBO93sX59wc6Bnwo4VJxsOmMlpGrAjJsxNwg3QH akEtf8LXRbVpj5xStdmBdQZUhIQyalo/2/TZq5OijtddUQcL5cs70hTv/FpT3wUvr2Xr8rjF 41IFEz8AAwcD/A0CZEGlzIrT5WCBnl6xBog/8vKiUCbarByat3d1mL6DbizvKNXQRTC9E/vE dENAWCQCjr75Bu55xT8n3SXGtWdDC5xmZ/P3OBYORP8yl8H8I1FIosWOFirbIeYdZPq8SPD1 HL+EXo9zSiHVrrZRJ19ooCKKbSdXHFCY+aJG+0KZiEkEGBECAAkFAkEOsG8CGwwACgkQu1hp 8GTqdKvjcACfZlkVCDwaz/NTO9cy3t69oWpVPNwAnRwe0qk/WL/gfhH346xh5B3HFbFN Organization: ITS, Case Western Reserve University Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 19:11:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=8/80, host=mpv3-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=8/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.8.234217:17:8.317, ip=, rules=__YOUTUBE_RCVD, DKIM_SIGNATURE, __X_GOOGLE_DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2, __CC_NAME, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, BODY_SIZE_500_599, __MIME_TEXT_P1, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/20 6:54 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > Well, "whatis" was a fine starter in 1983. At which point the name had been in use for something else for four years. The name is the problem, not the function. > > I'm not saying anything should change. This is a history list. Sure. The question is whether you can get what you want today. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,WEIRD_QUOTING autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 92a190c5 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 00:19:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6A5A19CCAE; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:19:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77EF9CCAD; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:19:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 136819CCAD; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:19:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB8E69CCA9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:19:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 3740835E104; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 16:19:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 16:19:30 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Rob Pike Message-ID: <20200209001930.GF21264@mcvoy.com> References: <46c41c18-5b44-14e5-1f0a-9272866993da@case.edu> <62548c3e-4692-c2d3-f06f-745353490b95@case.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" > In today's Unix (I use the term loosely) world, the phrase "free of > decoration" is apostasy. Yeah, it's annoying. When I was building my last big system (BitKeeper) I "solved" the problem by having -s (silent) as an option to pretty much every command that produced output. In terms of controlling output, we took the SCCS keywords on steriods, we evolved it to sort of a little programming language. I was told that "bk changes" (think git log sort of) couldn't be taught to produce JSON output. Oh, it can't huh. Below is the input that tells it to do just that. It's sort of awk like, control words are $word, "quoted stuff is printed, :THING: means print whatever THING is, variables are $0 .. $9 and eval to "" or 0 in numerical context. The main body script, much like awk calls it on each line, the script is called on each commit (and it optionally recurses into files as well). I'm pretty proud of it, it works really, really well. $ cat `bk bin`/dspec-changes-json # dspec-v2 # The default dspec used by 'bk changes -json' $begin { "[\n" } $if (:CHANGESET: && !:COMPONENT_V:) { $if($0 -eq 1) { "\},\n" } "\{\n" " \"key\": \":MD5KEY:\",\n" " \"user\": \":USER:\",\n" " \"host\": \":HOST:\",\n" " \"date\": \":Dy:-:Dm:-:Dd:T:T::TZ:\",\n" " \"serial\": :DS:,\n" " \"comments\": \"" $each(:C:){$json{(:C:)}\\n} "\",\n" $if (:TAGS:) { " \"tags\": [ " $each(:TAGS:){:JOIN:"\""(:TAGS:)"\""} " ],\n" } " \"parents\": [ " $if(:PARENT:){"\"" :MD5KEY|PARENT: "\""} $if(:PARENT: && :MPARENT:){," "} $if(:MPARENT:){"\"" :MD5KEY|MPARENT: "\""} " ]\n" ${0=1} # we need to close off the changeset } $end { $if($0 -eq 1) { "\}\n" } "]\n" } From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 44f8a31d for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:39:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3AA1C9BD85; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:39:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A209BCE3; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:39:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 58C089BCE3; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:39:18 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 1230 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:39:17 AEST Received: from ppsw-40.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-40.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.140]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE7749BCDE for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 23:39:17 +1000 (AEST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from grey.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.57.57]:48670) by ppsw-40.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.138]:25) with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1j18xZ-000fAB-lI (Exim 4.92.3) (return-path ); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:18:45 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:18:45 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Rob Pike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Rob Pike wrote: > > Unfortunately, Steve's memory allocation trick, mallocking on faults, isn't > portable, and I suspect the code will never run on a modern OS. I heard that one of the first things that each of the various 68000 ports had to do was patch the shell to make its memory allocation less adventurous. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Sole, Lundy, Fastnet: West 7 to severe gale 9, occasionally storm 10 at first. High or very high. Squally showers, thundery for a time. Moderate, occasionally poor. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 75e66a20 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 966139BD08; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:07:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7B99BCEB; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:06:35 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="e5VtQbjq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BA02F9BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:06:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f54.google.com (mail-qv1-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36DE09BCE3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:06:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f54.google.com with SMTP id s7so3293134qvn.8 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s/NlXdGbimicKMmqF9d1zYi+wR6Lk1coIOLpt61AUWg=; b=e5VtQbjqaeCCycsMLyz/sFplS18OOdnT9WBIYfIStQ1RT9280cf8NjAH5gE9Q/Z446 jdH2kfWS3Y8h4TEKZN2vddutibO212YtsFWRcALqcXan6sSnZm0DpXAwMNRshcn5Re/X BzFY63U7O46TDAoe8Z8NbR5qRzY+TxwQ6fuji5Sz9gYMYf+bLYirG1oSTjYj+rjTFmRQ ObmjRwi25Ak7zzL/7Yy9ADmymLNDATGA2V98Cb4hpSs8DKs5NkWaS+mqvK8HoRXKqkPH J5c7Fia7aQ79duVmq/cABf+ywAXMIVOALW1fNaPTdHk3xjjryIdAFxI9nj9WT6+Ac5Z6 SocA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s/NlXdGbimicKMmqF9d1zYi+wR6Lk1coIOLpt61AUWg=; b=D9Kba9qtCFtHATXDmOmKB1lhvWQLa8Ti0UGBv6J5lToAJYiKZePbQVc4VrM5DEXHG0 Zz43aetjBzAKbrj3CHWa5HOEkDNF62llxt+KoWJWqtd1PQeJifT9jCH3XjMk0YPZa0fl ny58oqUfzFipCqEqdlDNJTVYcjYaLZmJxMsPJjc0eooKEy0zWER1bUBP9THSxBWTcVTO L6/Da+Re6kCJfT2TwQ1Ou0WE1vxoOpnPHVYeR7NRySmkaBigI4SlRZj8/Tx08/j01V2a MCajnOiRJQkbY2umkr+wuV2ji8RLURw93VSAa36gVJ9S9T6uQHGGrdvx08q2HkBPxJFY W+SA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXJGa9sEv32M5XinS0qO8YX7QToIvdHSGQazQCv0x8Iz3EPnKny tDeYoGo/+L0Kt0dnPl6Ux0G344emGDHHDjqkul5wipLOyvI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJeGlo9YzUmj17uEKe+wqAuhhE9K+NB0SazTIUTnsOtYI6VHWEJYoni0Ev6/a2ed/WkiwEn4bJQMI5TfQvNn4= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f28f:: with SMTP id k15mr10132510qvl.76.1581347191226; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:05:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000998486059e3a15be" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Warner's Early Unix Presentation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000998486059e3a15be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 4:52 PM Rob Pike wrote: > [snip] I still think it's a great piece of code, and I miss the v8 shell > every day. [snip] > Unfortunately, Steve's memory allocation trick, mallocking on faults, > isn't portable, and I suspect the code will never run on a modern OS. Tom > Duff's rc was done as a reaction to the shell being, despite its other > glories, still a macro language. But that's another story. > Geoff Collyer wrote a nice paper about experiences porting the 9th Edition shell to SunOS 3 on the 68k some years ago. http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/sh.tour.pdf There is a copy of source code on his personal web page: http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/ I wonder if any of the 8th edition shell changes you mentioned survived in that code? - Dan C. --000000000000998486059e3a15be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat,= Feb 8, 2020 at 4:52 PM Rob Pike <r= obpike@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip] I still think it's a great piece of code, and I miss= the v8 shell every day. [snip]

Unfortunately, Steve's memory allo= cation trick, mallocking on faults, isn't portable, and I suspect the c= ode will never run on a modern OS. Tom Duff's rc was done as a reaction= to the shell being, despite its other glories, still a macro language. But= that's another story.

Geoff Collyer wrote a nice paper about experiences porting the 9th Editio= n shell to SunOS 3 on the 68k some years ago.=C2=A0http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/sh.tour.p= df

There is a copy of source code on his perso= nal web page:=C2=A0http://www= .collyer.net/who/geoff/

I wonder if any of the= 8th edition shell changes you mentioned survived in that code?
<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.


--000000000000998486059e3a15be-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4172ba00 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5DA629BD83; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:46:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FF19BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:46:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8D5429BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:46:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 865759BCDE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:46:27 +1000 (AEST) X-Envelope-From: arnold@skeeve.com Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 01AFkPoX001267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:46:25 -0700 Received: (from arnold@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 01AFkOSc001266; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:46:24 -0700 From: arnold@skeeve.com Message-Id: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: arnold set sender to arnold@skeeve.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:46:24 -0700 To: robpike@gmail.com, crossd@gmail.com References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Dan Cross wrote: > Geoff Collyer wrote a nice paper about experiences porting the 9th Edition > shell to SunOS 3 on the 68k some years ago. > http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/sh.tour.pdf > > There is a copy of source code on his personal web page: > http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/ > > I wonder if any of the 8th edition shell changes you mentioned survived in > that code? It took less than 10 minutes to get it to compile under Linux. 'whatis' is there, although the pretty printing of function code leaves much to be desired. Lacking is both readline and job control. Arnold From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id bff50c90 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 18:40:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3F98A9BD08; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:40:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC379BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:39:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="kZd7eGMx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7D95F9BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:39:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f180.google.com (mail-vk1-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AFF29BCDE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:39:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id i4so2079167vkc.3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:39:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9MAsrco2IyFhYZmwy0p4g0WAfCg8A2Hkpb5xBZNH5Z4=; b=kZd7eGMxIqB2zKuX9kand4C/ZtDcBw2OXzbubXPqNsN+Cd/W6A/cu3Wje4Qb2i0QTZ xtbbWcktPJ9VZkjPrOABmihGIxfnAm08cyXikw/F0Jtuy4Iw4D6A4TBnwZl9Cu/R+9Rv AkGeQNxK4f2vuruOisoTMcglRSJE9R7ddgsdrg5dzzAQjZO2ZI1NQxjR3J7aVyEJclXL 5/elhsJs8NkLQVfFVt61ExlpDm5WCyMnJND2KfS+ZJ5uetDGarVnW0mLDPmXFV5BICi0 Tb2lYNp+jj2XeHns5ldfagg86+Ei0CjuHXn5470+Z9e8EEpgeSCTwvrLTL9XoqCFJ2Di rxFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9MAsrco2IyFhYZmwy0p4g0WAfCg8A2Hkpb5xBZNH5Z4=; b=HJ21vV93eyaB+/2LdZG5qORSnq2pjiRhT4qsjle3jVjfMdRryX3gfrtEiuidj8jnnT sZxNCZ9+6qbN0tbSOTEaNgAa7F9bDstOpDsFybwFXKItFKjoy2koDuZ0teUbYEz0tOee JcMSwic1qKHXD0MaIZrRwqUCLxSzczKTexdadxkfqiAEBk+/gEHizA+31vLXfA8VlOAy upfBuedwGXrM2i7z10GucfRxwk3i1iixXCL1t1vc73x4EPGIWVq6vtfXN0JQiUiNMXzO njx6poGCvlkQQV825MYoyaN/N/CKXlXZtRTp2nlXZuvMGq0YayUxQ62Zq6fyfD4nWkin fAIw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWddeNAPRsoJFLuutwb/RLe/axKwNxXiwZ1lD1mTwCJcT2QhF8Q QvB5K+L5KMPxMfXJ3ltOJfN4V9iSHtwhW7d04Bo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyz7KGRvwfdUJwe0+kcxIbsP9R0dz7EszvA4c+ktxew+a9Jd7iZelhzFntZ6npYN6aEDK4NIuDuY9i1GXfskzE= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:bfc2:: with SMTP id p185mr1504784vkf.73.1581359977533; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:39:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 05:39:26 +1100 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b91655059e3d0f21" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000b91655059e3d0f21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple command windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. -rob On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 2:46 AM wrote: > Dan Cross wrote: > > > Geoff Collyer wrote a nice paper about experiences porting the 9th > Edition > > shell to SunOS 3 on the 68k some years ago. > > http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/sh.tour.pdf > > > > There is a copy of source code on his personal web page: > > http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/ > > > > I wonder if any of the 8th edition shell changes you mentioned survived > in > > that code? > > It took less than 10 minutes to get it to compile under Linux. 'whatis' > is there, although the pretty printing of function code leaves > much to be desired. > > Lacking is both readline and job control. > > Arnold > --000000000000b91655059e3d0f21 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Readline and job control were less compelling when you had= multiple command windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the= Blit.

-rob


On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at = 2:46 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> = wrote:
Dan Cross= <crossd@gmail.com= > wrote:

> Geoff Collyer wrote a nice paper about experiences porting the 9th Edi= tion
> shell to SunOS 3 on the 68k some years ago.
> http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/sh.tour.pdf >
> There is a copy of source code on his personal web page:
> http://www.collyer.net/who/geoff/
>
> I wonder if any of the 8th edition shell changes you mentioned survive= d in
> that code?

It took less than 10 minutes to get it to compile under Linux. 'whatis&= #39;
is there, although the pretty printing of function code leaves
much to be desired.

Lacking is both readline and job control.

Arnold
--000000000000b91655059e3d0f21-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3eb62e36 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 18:59:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 919329BD86; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:59:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF959BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:59:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9472F9BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:59:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail.bitblocks.com (ns1.bitblocks.com [173.228.5.8]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7139BCE3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:59:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bitblocks.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6328156E40E for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:59:14 -0800 (PST) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Feb 2020 05:39:26 +1100." References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> Comments: In-reply-to Rob Pike message dated "Tue, 11 Feb 2020 05:39:26 +1100." From: Bakul Shah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23491.1581361154.1@bitblocks.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:59:14 -0800 Message-Id: <20200210185921.E6328156E40E@mail.bitblocks.com> Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 05:39:26 +1100 Rob Pike wrote: > > Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple command > windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. ^Z is still useful, to stop forward progress temporarily. Analogous to what ^S/^Q does for output stream. As for editable typescript, I like how Dyalog's APL console app works. You can edit any previous expression but when you run it, the original expression is restored and the edited expression appears on a new line. This way you can see the real history of what you did, as opposed to in acme or rio, for example, where the original content of edited lines in an rc shell window is lost. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3e8a3073 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:06:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BAAD19BCFB; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:06:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340319BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:06:02 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=papnet.eu header.i=@papnet.eu header.b="IUA8pxEv"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b="k8f++bOd"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 39B7C9BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:06:00 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 426 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:05:59 AEST Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5940C9BCDE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:05:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93F2473 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:58:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=papnet.eu; h= date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=fm3; bh=F4SwqYnucSSrtqWbXgjfa9AMU2G viNQ0UvClFdXO4ZU=; b=IUA8pxEvTEDAjSzqZOmXz/7iv0zStkSsRdWjmMrCaZ7 aYs/KhxwTH1lZeyF80bJgAXIqfkrD6CFr2d6mbRZmPGmFdvNOrl3tI1ZgcyIe7Ku RMRbLgo3u472IYzwL7b5/4lfaf+ikZzzy19NfUtsjcfjqB8mLxVwkuCJkqsK181L ZgS/M/C6xa7LWJrTK+3OdH4NWSrJjBF16Zk+m25l5jZUMZcHnnwBSk2pWnnWNKJz MImt4J1J9nlO4bx0rICuANlE8GuCm2KeYCZmoL6B97fp82sgoBeGk23bl5LnUH2G fq52RdLj5ijCegUv3d7CFIoZNip4rew19ANxdZuErSw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=F4SwqY nucSSrtqWbXgjfa9AMU2GviNQ0UvClFdXO4ZU=; b=k8f++bOdg9C4W5m/wDLsac gwH9jlOsYH0KOFc/mxbic3AtmnIptXXodYm4FJ9HV89zy00Owvv+VMk/ZV+WynRp rA9CZF//iy43nQl/w+l/gi4EYBDGXKI0cil/az0QhVrkU+oKXIsfOcA1x0UrjKQC tjors88BKjcvItBhaHJrQ1iOe+tgkiTWHHToH0Z/gmMk7k1CYWy7nVlHIex/O0IF M/cpMxR38DvXRs2T4wkIWp1kNzBqDxDiHXicoiZRA4kdKUCvKGkEGRIzELstcj0e 2DkAtTKw9MLbHEkruAj1I4PgemSLgKwqUbsc/WmkUio78vUrm2aUdKIYLR2m++Dw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedriedugdduvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttd ertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpeetnhhgvghlohcurfgrphgvnhhhohhffhcuoegrrghpsehp rghpnhgvthdrvghuqeenucfkphepkeelrdduvddriedvrddvuddtnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprggrphesphgrphhnvghtrdgv uh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from indra.papnet.eu (x590c3ed2.dyn.telefonica.de [89.12.62.210]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A0C2A3280060 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:58:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:58:49 +0100 From: Angelo Papenhoff To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Message-ID: <20200210195849.GA82734@indra.papnet.eu> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.0 (2016-04-01) Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 11/02/20, Rob Pike wrote: > Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple command > windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. What i like is the autocorrect feature in v8: $ cd /usr/blot /usr/blit $ pwd /usr/blit aap From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5bef6aa1 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:11:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7FC979BCEC; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:11:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC419BCEB; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 06:11:08 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=case.edu header.i=@case.edu header.b="2L3mZYSt"; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200210195849.GA82734@indra.papnet.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Junkmail-Status: score=9/80, host=mpv2-2015.case.edu X-Junkmail-PrAS-Raw: score=9/80, refid=2.7.2:2020.2.10.190018:17:9.975, ip=, rules=DKIM_SIGNATURE, __HAS_REPLYTO, __HAS_CC_HDR, __SUBJ_REPLY, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_TO_X2, __TO_NAME, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC, __HAS_REFERENCES, __REFERENCES, __HAS_FROM, FROM_EDU_TLD, __HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, DATE_TZ_NA, __USER_AGENT, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT, __MIME_VERSION, __IN_REP_TO, __CT, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN, __CTE, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ADDY, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_ACC, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC1, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC2, __TO_IN_SUBJECT2, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN, __DKIM_ALIGNS_1, __DKIM_ALIGNS_2, __ANY_URI, __URI_MAILTO, __URI_WITH_PATH, __URI_ENDS_IN_SLASH, __URI_NO_WWW, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __FRAUD_MONEY_CURRENCY_DOLLAR, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, __URI_IN_BODY, __URI_NOT_IMG, __MAIL_CHAIN, __FORWARDED_MSG, __BODY_NO_MAILTO, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW, BODY_SIZE_600_699, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, [TRUNCATED], so=2010-03-03 19:42:08, dmn=2016-08-03-0138 Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: chet.ramey@case.edu Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/10/20 2:58 PM, Angelo Papenhoff wrote: > On 11/02/20, Rob Pike wrote: >> Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple command >> windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. > > What i like is the autocorrect feature in v8: > > $ cd /usr/blot > /usr/blit > $ pwd > /usr/blit Maybe unsurprisingly, bash has that as well (the `cdspell' option). I picked up a fair amount from the v8/v9 shells. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 40f738fc for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:34:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C37C39BD86; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:34:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500779BCEB; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:33:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C98CB9BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:33:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1F69BCE3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:33:56 +1000 (AEST) X-Envelope-From: arnold@skeeve.com Received: from freefriends.org (freefriends.org [96.88.95.60]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 01B9XqxD004160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:33:52 -0700 Received: (from arnold@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 01B9XqQX004159; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:33:52 -0700 From: arnold@skeeve.com Message-Id: <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: arnold set sender to arnold@skeeve.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:33:52 -0700 To: robpike@gmail.com, arnold@skeeve.com References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Rob Pike wrote: > Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple command > windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. Understandable. But the 99.9999% of us not in 1127 only had glass ttys. I did have a DMD 5620 for a while (which I loved), but I don't recall that it had editiable typescripts. I thought that that came in with 8-1/2 in Plan 9? Thanks, Arnold From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 49a3ee2c for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:48:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C1F589BCED; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCBC9BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:04 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="hwkSqQ1o"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D45E39BCE8; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f42.google.com (mail-ed1-f42.google.com [209.85.208.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 355739BCE3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f42.google.com with SMTP id dc19so3880326edb.10 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:48:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RvRkunE5WSxOCZjj+b4BVTY3uC3KdLVWVDMjmGpi78w=; b=hwkSqQ1oXBHkmKnl1XHYsA7IJApW7Oz4FflvbACVh94vUCFlfu5wArW4dOsgqip/U3 jpEUOWS0aaNcjrCZOZW8+CfPg7wlSCyjr8ADYC5RbQU+wo+FkJZ8QIMdzBbgviA+KeFa FS+662OyUBQ/kKmWZefvpzCpFSySgoe9x0XB4QjuTgX58iGnQqW24vxP3NZ81/U+KJ4S i/FA6vY7MY/f3Nzk/6fnYpaJmLD/aQxKl4d6G4UbYSm/RjX0ZP2J66Rat1R60fd0BZ4z ZcXOwmrKzZv1IGauoattd4ch100R2hj8w3k4pRvqf+HOrMUHNQ5x/lx2g7m0c4ILGQUB ML8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RvRkunE5WSxOCZjj+b4BVTY3uC3KdLVWVDMjmGpi78w=; b=d8BarLnT/5l0T3kbGobKdAH8Wc2kw4tYZ5yNcYWPNZDhxF5XvEYsCHoqTTgiSYJuNt zCb7+v2eAeM2lR0QJDl3b7LUspInjkuLeGnrp4TaT4H0CCPWf1bh7+WJfQiLdCheQVqH utvDKWdTw1cZlrivaowtYvhUJbLs6t3snRufew7K1WLDGeZVQF/vlrICcpHL/rOpBY+A 9hw2kaWbBbCLW4DSURBJVUIoHj30AsdhcOfHYoDjrSGuXAEwNas07Alm53VMiV7bX6DM uT1Qif0d8OUdcKJS8b4zlwZLioktAc2vpQMqVTrT+0Gk+qxVTkQ1w0vGNtULL6uWDNvu oU2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWlig9zGW93nPRW28L+UtpivbxB+lYDEWbXWYZmYS+SPjul2+1h RsbgFgFwRdagDsZw1DsLpDfESaLPpAAU90zm0eU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxy32jfz/cv3D+ujfHtWqXYn9RvY1/2F1/QqoDemOPydUSkR2iAUc54ZhpuAbkB6mkYncZZLLmM471HS4Eolko= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d3cb:: with SMTP id o11mr5101942edr.145.1581414480611; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:48:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> From: Noel Hunt Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:47:33 +0900 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c0f05059e49c090" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005c0f05059e49c090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 18:34 : > I did have a DMD 5620 for a while (which I loved), but I don't recall > that it had editiable typescripts. I thought that that came in > with 8-1/2 in Plan 9? > Muxterm, the default user-interface window under mux, was most definitely editable. --0000000000005c0f05059e49c090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 18:34 <arnold@skeeve.com>:
=
Muxterm, the default user-= interface window under mux, was most
definitely editable.
<= /div> --0000000000005c0f05059e49c090-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 99c1a53d for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:49:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5A97A9BD04; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:49:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7B19BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:24 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="kM42uiYx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 77D8F9BCEC; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f175.google.com (mail-vk1-f175.google.com [209.85.221.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 952F89BD08 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:48:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f175.google.com with SMTP id p191so2778061vkf.8 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:48:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s8eiDXrAxjreuHU33Rjt3fe/FM2jfzoHayx2uMBQhIY=; b=kM42uiYx/+dl8P5bpLjVjkV8Gt0vSsO3za/jIQLjVeAuz/gzbiyYoF0nWsTMJTF0cN wOhob1oS9ZljQbnNa6NUg80gx/YgtSuT1dLngG4q/PAgBAsySA6GQR5UquSiHMHVSCB2 1Iksrcp4oyvXRUL/bZe5P+OdwecISkZ5KgTzsfHSCJm/EHL3bbvbF4aEnZDsuGFMNywg p37zs5kAzc69BFCpPeaehlTfRhuO6Qy4Dgg1+4CytFPlAwlf+ljMm2Naz82HAHUtW0vM fnMWqLr+YZC5qYLdrmieVadLnSUAYandcACM5Q2oZpmVZ55xaU5SS3lf14SOFbtxTICj Kotw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s8eiDXrAxjreuHU33Rjt3fe/FM2jfzoHayx2uMBQhIY=; b=HcsqNKiIS/k2nDbTCFHLkSCQz02MBpmKCTvZVm5exTT0DWFt3vz3UFKSW47ig1JpFb Tu/6VTBbvxsXul81Hn5myql9HYnUHvdyFXfowZ+PHWGVShHefT+Rxwlx5dKLd8gLNFbV B4CLmie2Kv/bj1t9BSY+RdcTZ1x9vabuIc3QKEHA2pXvcUdbibr3iKGMMVtbnUEMGOTl Zck6jJn6ShYLhHda0aW1c7J6sb/A5zyKRp0Ot2sHEzyWkwgA8RvrV9QLSVgD4ke0Ni9H bjPD9UlBXJNVyQEj4HsKwq4Hvfwp3nvttAShJt5qzEziHd1ypDFAYDdHFoKmiVrCAFKo PjOw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVWnkIrBrEQannEYKT1EzoJcRe50W/GXfdNrotEc2Yjv3Y6+rPr Xwp97dKzXlFe83bYrr0qsmvuP8nLMfmfmmGgl0KqxX/r X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwZQyEBIPzSmcGgAoIOtRfh4cuRkyqjtDMbcQNTWy1XyPnYA2CQbUeGVjm6v3rYI7OSviehmL7zqlJz9EIYAGo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:332:: with SMTP id d18mr4324718vko.89.1581414489457; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:48:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:47:58 +1100 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e30838059e49c07e" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000e30838059e49c07e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There were three window systems that I know of that ran on the various incarnations of that machine. The first, mpx, was very basic. The second, mux, allowed editing of text on the screen and had some interesting properties, such as "hold mode", which stopped all reads to the host until hold mode was cancelled. This allowed one to use the terminal window as a general text editor for any application, and was obviously an influence on various followons. It also didn't satisfy any read to the host until you hit return, so all hold mode did was make its basic one-line operation multiline, but it felt liberating and was used constantly for writing mail messages and so on. Both these systems depended (eventually) on new v8 stuff like streams and select, so they didn't work on System 3 etc. USG did a thing for themselves called layers, which was more like mpx than mux. -rob On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 8:33 PM wrote: > Rob Pike wrote: > > > Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple > command > > windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit. > > Understandable. But the 99.9999% of us not in 1127 only had glass ttys. > > I did have a DMD 5620 for a while (which I loved), but I don't recall > that it had editiable typescripts. I thought that that came in > with 8-1/2 in Plan 9? > > Thanks, > > Arnold > --000000000000e30838059e49c07e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There were three window systems that I know of that ran on= the various incarnations of that machine. The first, mpx, was very basic. = The second, mux, allowed editing of text on the screen and had some interes= ting properties, such as "hold mode", which stopped all reads to = the host until hold mode was cancelled. This allowed one to use the termina= l window as a general text editor for any application, and was obviously an= influence on various followons. It also didn't satisfy any read to the= host until you hit return, so all hold mode did was make its basic one-lin= e operation multiline, but it felt liberating and was used constantly for w= riting mail messages and so on.

Both these systems depen= ded (eventually) on new v8 stuff like streams and select, so they didn'= t work on System 3 etc. USG did a thing for themselves called layers, which= was more like mpx than mux.

-rob


On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 8:33 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Readline and job control were less compelling when you had multiple co= mmand
> windows of editable typescript, which we all had with the Blit.

Understandable. But the 99.9999% of us not in 1127 only had glass ttys.

I did have a DMD 5620 for a while (which I loved), but I don't recall that it had editiable typescripts.=C2=A0 I thought that that came in
with 8-1/2 in Plan 9?

Thanks,

Arnold
--000000000000e30838059e49c07e-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4552ad51 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:59:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0BF609BD0A; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF739BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="lo0DEaAy"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 317089BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f50.google.com (mail-ua1-f50.google.com [209.85.222.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6D809BCDE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f50.google.com with SMTP id a33so3696407uad.11 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JWCf2vQBn6MdVR7mxrxPnc0gqd/D4B96UwlwLt1cXNE=; b=lo0DEaAyTwuYnlKa5uqgR+GrcMD/dYOmtjJiT0OPbkaCt9cs1rdoEBK5dkK88Qnv69 omEyhPsYvO52aBVKNIIg0+jEJ5drpQrZH9kVZh7Z/9m/aZy8rf4twTFFEEArl3skYu1P nueP1NggBB1C/E17MyR0jMzxutRTrBoJa/jriN6YFTdQHlgjX/uVQZOk1mW4Bwr+ulIt picrawKxRxo4oEyUILD/K0TXahelvipF3sFBXJaGkyh7DArZhye7Y+gSpf1BT/2vBlVx HwEFFdsFUlZaD0rGS99n+eugGs3yANPAArF/N/xcheHup5sb3bokU/IvR/QHpYiaA4LN GYdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JWCf2vQBn6MdVR7mxrxPnc0gqd/D4B96UwlwLt1cXNE=; b=ffM5aZvpPp9GqBxCm+P1YeYb61k1k84qu1FCqvs1RN+oWflE33vo4RI+zfaMuDVs/G tvZeeggXoX5gkgMxDPh8Tq1zz3yXrWxFc2srMAgX3qAKUBiNJzcm5AMpOx1idaw7p4vB O1PJQzzJfftSxmOS8rzTLWVbwVdr1TbpWbY/h3YZAzWZGqtBbYVjhva6Mlw0gCCCDMq1 vV3339NjJs4P/rQ8rPs3apLiQPngEBzT6xA7cardIbkgu55Adsowz2jmIf2RNaRq/l9z 5RGdngU/kp31MbqyFvZtIjITvCthF0yN1JUiMFsrlZ8g6ehGVAmw/fzqrjQ0dVvsq9PH aS2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWa3JELhWXYI4drrL4C+Y8UgDUaearXfCoK2cBdte3roIBCGoB RsRpXDvaYir9LJVQ8nBWgjChijSZelWhseIjp9U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzl2oWICiq2grJR5gulIc/unsAid179nkaTg5hTdtO29OfAZtPtX9KHC8jPAGkTR5I4+JDs13Z1M1DvN0AjEC8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:46c:: with SMTP id 99mr1174667uav.134.1581415175001; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:59:24 +1100 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No model to speak of. Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, "enough!". -rob --000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My general mood about the current standard way of nerd wor= king is how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless w= ays we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while w= e program, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pr= etty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for = almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much = more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame term= inal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressi= ng, which date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, alt= hough they are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the env= ironment, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a= coherent vision. No model to speak of.

Compare what hap= pened with our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" = phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think= we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPho= nes, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a real di= fferent recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out.
=

But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic.= Warren should cry, "enough!".

-rob
--000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id cad6b25a for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D43289BCED; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:05:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B209BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:05:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 01BAA9BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:05:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227229BCDE for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:05:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CA5B716054; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:05:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:05:01 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Rob Pike Message-ID: <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> Mail-Followup-To: Rob Pike , arnold@skeeve.com, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.17-43-g63b6e03a OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Rob Pike wrote in : |My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how \ |unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways \ |we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells=20 |while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons \ |we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive \ |for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be=20 |doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisti\ |cated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other \ |than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s=20 |via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because= \ |they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. \ |And they are just lots of features, not a coherent=20 |vision. No model to speak of. | |Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with \ |our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling \ |of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should program the=20 |way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface \ |work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. \ |We're missing out. I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- thought, aka brain computer interfaces. (I personally am even convinced we will get the brain implant -- ever since i got all those B and C Hollywood movies from the 50s wrong, back when i was a kid. It is convincing still, automatic emergency calls, health record and cases of incompatibility at hand when needed, and not to talk about the hints it will give the law enforcement side of the road.) Just last year i have seen a report on the current stage of affairs, Carnegie-Mellon and Minnesota Universities seem to have build a non-invasively controlled robotic arm, pretty high precision. "Wir haben erhebliche Fortschritte im Bereich Robotervorrichtungen mit Gedankensteuerung =C3=BCber Gehirnimplantate gemacht. We have made substantial progress in the region of thought-controlled robotic devices via implants. Das ist hervorragende Forschungsarbeit", sagt He. "That is superb research work", says He [Professor Bin He, Carnegie-Mellon]. "Nichtinvasiv ist jedoch unser ultimatives Ziel. Fortschritte in der neuronalen Dekodierung und der praktischen Auswirkungen auf die m=C3=B6gliche Entwicklung nichtinvasiver Nutzbarkeit nichtinvasiver Roboterarmsteuerung werden erhebliche Neurorobotik haben." "Albeit non-invasive is our ultimate goal. Progress in neuronal decoding, and the practical usability of non-invasive control of robotic arms will have substantial effect on the possible development of non-invasive neuro-robotics." |But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, \ |"enough!". I personally would love it, if it where only in the hands of empathic beings, capable of reflection. Yet it is us. ^_^ --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4c491b87 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:19:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4499E9BCFD; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:19:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B529BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:19:03 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kilonet.net header.i=@kilonet.net header.b="aCtjYXXu"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C77A39BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:19:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.109]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1985F9BCDE for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:19:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from medusa.kilonet.net ([72.69.214.144]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 1ZBcjTiAcoPuC1ZBdj8FAY; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:19:01 -0700 Received: from [199.89.231.101] (ender.kilonet.net [199.89.231.101]) by medusa.kilonet.net (8.14.8/8.15.1) with ESMTP id 01BHJ0BK021432 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:19:00 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kilonet.net; s=default; t=1581441540; bh=fYksGn08vftmPIoLP6iwKa0tZWZy4umVlBHCXH7swNk=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=aCtjYXXubq2T0yyqysMw9GkhcWAAx44Tczshyfto5hJ51ZxJCyS9aYJ2AYgba3/vD oJh0duGTFqFlIpuOJlbwingU00MPBRvfpj0+M+CkkZDDtq8N9kexjlMOhWKog3eW5X 5d8ep4LeydfHs7DdRMOhSoa0Kq5UDGxxmH6Jdtk4= To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> From: Arthur Krewat Message-ID: <9c056bdf-0813-8df6-20b9-03b5fa1686d9@kilonet.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:18:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIc9pPLy1DB1VVoKXGlLq7GaSUs52MXnKVgAehhVJQMDziCxURRYkfiM610p6wiu1PddhJLn2Cvs9I/alqZ1lonMLqnJf+MMLmfyudnMk+a/uReWnV4K /N9UzeEyFRlIB8lDNPJpVtxaEZ9siKvPZfd2Sws7rmDl/gn8ZBVtp5W6T6OBbTUaPNlRvQCMCwzfTw== Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Sorry to top-post... To me, the biggest handicap to getting anything done, code-wise, command-line-wise, basically anything, is the keyboard/mouse. I use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible, being an old LA36 kind guy, but I would love to have something that just by looking at text, be able to highlight, copy/cut/paste, etc. Even action buttons. It would be great to look at the "Send" button in Thunderbird and press a key on the mouse or keyboard (or some other eye-contact type signal) and "do" it. Was anything ever done in terms of sub-vocalization? Lots of stories in Sci-Fi about that, nothing ever came out of it, I don't think. On 2/11/2020 12:05 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Rob Pike wrote in > : > |My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how \ > |unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways \ > |we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells > |while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons \ > |we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive \ > |for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be > |doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisti\ > |cated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other \ > |than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s > |via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because \ > |they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. \ > |And they are just lots of features, not a coherent > |vision. No model to speak of. > | > |Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with \ > |our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling \ > |of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should program the > |way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface \ > |work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. \ > |We're missing out. > > I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- > thought, aka brain computer interfaces. (I personally am even > convinced we will get the brain implant -- ever since i got all > those B and C Hollywood movies from the 50s wrong, back when i was > a kid. It is convincing still, automatic emergency calls, health > record and cases of incompatibility at hand when needed, and not > to talk about the hints it will give the law enforcement side of > the road.) > > Just last year i have seen a report on the current stage of > affairs, Carnegie-Mellon and Minnesota Universities seem to have > build a non-invasively controlled robotic arm, pretty high > precision. > > "Wir haben erhebliche Fortschritte im Bereich > Robotervorrichtungen mit Gedankensteuerung über Gehirnimplantate > gemacht. > We have made substantial progress in the region of > thought-controlled robotic devices via implants. > > Das ist hervorragende Forschungsarbeit", sagt He. > "That is superb research work", says He [Professor Bin He, > Carnegie-Mellon]. > > "Nichtinvasiv ist jedoch unser ultimatives Ziel. > Fortschritte in der neuronalen Dekodierung und der praktischen > Auswirkungen auf die mögliche Entwicklung nichtinvasiver > Nutzbarkeit nichtinvasiver Roboterarmsteuerung werden erhebliche > Neurorobotik haben." > > "Albeit non-invasive is our ultimate goal. > Progress in neuronal decoding, and the practical usability of > non-invasive control of robotic arms will have substantial > effect on the possible development of non-invasive > neuro-robotics." > > |But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, \ > |"enough!". > > I personally would love it, if it where only in the hands of > empathic beings, capable of reflection. Yet it is us. ^_^ > > --steffen > | > |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > |(By Robert Gernhardt) > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8fef4200 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:37:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D68DF9CD81; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:37:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724059CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:36:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="pMk8at0/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 250449CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:36:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f48.google.com (mail-qv1-f48.google.com [209.85.219.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 958749CD73 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:36:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f48.google.com with SMTP id p2so5360274qvo.10 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:36:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=F3xX3GB9pmF3nOu91coxQC/CPHzHneg6L7R0Xfcn+zE=; b=pMk8at0/oql1/6V9aCILiJfQVNglAdpSBmcIm95UE4p5cxeQiQfO2OdSaeJvCPmJxN z0yuLraCDj/z9PfkSEfk8goSVWnpmrKucSmOaAAatjxfpSlJWf4aXjKKOjnExfsvGQkD bnezetnmuhonCsAkgM1e7NpnZLeXu8YVMTIAnuAocQMnJ19ZI4euuVkZOb8NMMan4AU6 H51fAI29onR3vEYpPS+cIipuFUqB4qZT0mRRFLNtOcJw8JNg0+RacUEEQZxZdVsQM7H7 PYf0VkfLue624DMyhSxZre4xnpLdPDuJFBPn+LEdXbwpZTwBrVa/CzmP1z9TZLcocr3E zFLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=F3xX3GB9pmF3nOu91coxQC/CPHzHneg6L7R0Xfcn+zE=; b=eoaCjBZ0SNh31k4adJ4ydlqZVtFD6726BTWs+EytAZqHW1e2POrvWGLfxpIyFMTRA0 v3Zxq6p6ki+1ij9bYeFxSqnI81Lo14YjfIosdzQ50c6jawU1J6k2SdxHTk4FftCQ9Glx ex1u5LAakJYVUz+D/7JsYyhwfszrEnk1yaFB+/Gtn7ZYyHevUhUCjjEhp9TbzyKG+Jwa WQKKBDOghS4OFAsyItyT0+mJdwWlg/MRp5avcr23vTrBRaur/mlQAh6d70gMzxtUyRXY CoEXJnCWx5DGHTMs+4wRB2FNgrvshNhmxbmgF+18C3J+Z08eR4NS34FWUUgfXcReh/5h MTFg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWwkrocuvosUnk/8wlLs0Bvcfdy6xNVF4v2uGZYnm8/NhRcwHmB EVlt0+YdEJim19cxBr55GSFT7nIq6vxoaIT5km4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxGlqijPCqJR5URpDJ7Y5pEtZLhGZhErjhi4YMZ1U4P9GAIGNgqo79YEMFJ/tpi5HaVyQclQx2dhbTxHpl8Kd4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:923:: with SMTP id dk3mr3774857qvb.96.1581442599760; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:36:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006438c6059e504c47" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000006438c6059e504c47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 4:59 AM Rob Pike wrote: > My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how > unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could > be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, > but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using > one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it > seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, > xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in > mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from > the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, > because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the > language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No > model to speak of. > > Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our > "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I > think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use > iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a > real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. > What do you think of thinks like Jupyter or Lighttable? The early demos for the latter, I thought, were particularly compelling (though sadly the current implementation seems like much more of a traditional text editor and far removed from the original vision). Compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58-n7uldoU to www.youtube.com/watch?v=52SVAMM3V78 But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, > "enough!". > One of the reasons we study history is to understand the present and inform our decisions for the future. Personally, I enjoy these sorts of explorations of where we might have done things differently. - Dan C. --0000000000006438c6059e504c47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 4:59 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how un= imaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could b= e interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, but= for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much usin= g one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyon= e, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. = I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that= ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date= from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are= powerful, because they don't integrate well with the environment, only= with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent visi= on. No model to speak of.

Compare what happened with our shell windows wi= th what happened with our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and= you'll get some inkling of what I think we're missing. It's no= t that we should program the way we use iPhones, but that there are fields = where user interface work has made a real different recently. Not so in pro= gramming, though. We're missing out.

<= div>
What do you think of thinks like Jupyter or Lighttable?=C2=A0 The = early demos for the latter, I thought, were particularly compelling (though= sadly the current implementation seems like much more of a traditional tex= t editor and far removed from the original vision). Compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DH58-n7uldoU to=C2=A0www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D52SVAMM3V78

But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren sh= ould cry, "enough!".

= One of the reasons we study history is to understand the present and inform= our decisions for the future. Personally, I enjoy these sorts of explorati= ons of where we might have done things differently.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

--0000000000006438c6059e504c47-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9795d107 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9C5C09CD90; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:23:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4FF9CD75; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:22:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6D99B9CD72; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:22:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A9F9CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:22:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: (qmail 10560 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Feb 2020 10:22:38 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:22:38 -0800 From: Kurt H Maier To: tuhs@tuhs.org Message-ID: <20200211182238.GA5008@wopr> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 06:05:01PM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > > I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- > thought, aka brain computer interfaces. I can't even trust computers to do the right thing with input specially crafted for the program I'm using. There is no way in hell I'm turning it loose on a direct neural interface. Software engineering, as a discipline, is going to require a lot more actual discipline before neural interfaces become anything but fuel for a dystopian hellscape. I'm not saying we can't get there. I'm saying we're not headed in that direction so far. khm From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 2e8f550a for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:27:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DC4109CD7F; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:27:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339129CD73; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:26:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0AF1C9CD73; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:26:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C379CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:26:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01BIQpWa1764364 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:26:51 -0800 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 01BIQp2A1764361 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:26:51 -0800 Message-Id: <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Comments: In-reply-to Steffen Nurpmeso message dated "Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:05:01 +0100." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <1764359.1581445611.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:26:51 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > Rob Pike wrote in > : > |My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how \ > |unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways \ > |we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells > |while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons \ > |we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive \ > |for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be > |doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisti\ > |cated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other \ > |than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s > |via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because \ > |they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. \ > |And they are just lots of features, not a coherent > |vision. No model to speak of. > | > |Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with \ > |our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling \ > |of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should program the > |way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface \ > |work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. \ > |We're missing out. > > I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- > thought, aka brain computer interfaces. (I personally am even > convinced we will get the brain implant -- ever since i got all > those B and C Hollywood movies from the 50s wrong, back when i was > a kid. It is convincing still, automatic emergency calls, health > record and cases of incompatibility at hand when needed, and not > to talk about the hints it will give the law enforcement side of > the road.) > > Just last year i have seen a report on the current stage of > affairs, Carnegie-Mellon and Minnesota Universities seem to have > build a non-invasively controlled robotic arm, pretty high > precision. > > "Wir haben erhebliche Fortschritte im Bereich > Robotervorrichtungen mit Gedankensteuerung über Gehirnimplantate > gemacht. > We have made substantial progress in the region of > thought-controlled robotic devices via implants. > > Das ist hervorragende Forschungsarbeit", sagt He. > "That is superb research work", says He [Professor Bin He, > Carnegie-Mellon]. > > "Nichtinvasiv ist jedoch unser ultimatives Ziel. > Fortschritte in der neuronalen Dekodierung und der praktischen > Auswirkungen auf die mögliche Entwicklung nichtinvasiver > Nutzbarkeit nichtinvasiver Roboterarmsteuerung werden erhebliche > Neurorobotik haben." > > "Albeit non-invasive is our ultimate goal. > Progress in neuronal decoding, and the practical usability of > non-invasive control of robotic arms will have substantial > effect on the possible development of non-invasive > neuro-robotics." > > |But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, \ > |"enough!". > > I personally would love it, if it where only in the hands of > empathic beings, capable of reflection. Yet it is us. ^_^ > > --steffen Well, I'm gonna give my two cents on this before Warren tells us that it's off-topic :-) One way to look at it is that there are two stages to programming or any other problem-solving discipline. First, clearly express the problem. Second, implement a solution. There's been a lot of improvement in both of these areas during my lifetime. Especially when I look at the "everybody must learn to code" movement I see people looking for a magic bullet; they just want to think of something and have it magically appear. Problem is that the thinking of something isn't that easy. People want DWIT (do what I think), a step beyond DWIM :-) I'm reminded of the awful virtual reality panel at SIGGRAPH some decades ago now where people stood up and said "with virtual reality there will be no misunderstanding and people will be able to know exactly what you're thinking." My response was "wow, if people knew exactly what you were thinking they'd kill you." The fuzziness of our brains is an asset here, not a liability. So I'm not thinking that translating thoughts directly into programs is a good thing. All that said, there is an area that I think needs some work, which reminds me that I wrote Tamara Munzner at UBC about this and need to ping her again. My current troublemaking project is to make an unfortunately necessary change to linux to accomplish something that I want to do. Because I haven't mucked around in the kernel before I've been keeping notes as I try to figure it out; sort of a travelogue. One of the things that's important to me is writing code for the reader, not the writer. Being old, I remember working for companies where there was warranty support for products, and that maintenance and support cost way more than development. So I've always written code for the maintainers because I never wanted to become one because nobody could figure out my code. Oh, Jon's rambling here, how is this relevant? Something that I never gave much thought about until I was a reviewer for Tamara's book is that my coding style tries to maximize the brain's pre-attentive mode. A lot of hunting around in code involves visually scanning for patterns (vgrep), and one would like to be able to do that in fixed time as opposed to linear time. In my opinion, the linux code sucks at this. The coding style of breaking up functions to keep the number of indent levels low has what I'm calling poor "meatspace locality of reference." People have caches too, and we'd never write code for a computer that thrashes as badly as code written for people. Anyway, what I've been wondering about is whether anybody has examined the UIs of different IDEs from a pre-attentive standpoint. One of the weird things about how our brains manage pre-attentive mode is that there are only a handful of things that we can do in that mode before popping out, and that those things have weird interactions. So, for example, does coloring things work? Does bracket matching work? Do they still work if you do both? A good thesis topic for someone younger than me. Jon From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8752ea80 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A33D09CD7C; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:35:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E1E9CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:35:22 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="QxgU5EwN"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4D4DF9CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:35:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f41.google.com (mail-ua1-f41.google.com [209.85.222.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9655F9CD73 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:35:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f41.google.com with SMTP id l6so4327125uap.13 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:35:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=du7ju728DFWMo4ETtS7TFO8/lkkuq5igqBphwCCVEOs=; b=QxgU5EwNGBPhW17hC/17nbhC4t++zNI1f97c/g6ClHl0XjKcPqrPxSSPV043GUPk2H ms8/VcNHdB0rTWCshRC46WPI7CIBB3afKtUsoY/Tfw4j9Pem6q7TkawjhnLLg7Rhl2ow W+ToipWFqXbOn64lGilIytSaknJ/HqbFsKbi9pbtK+cuGi2gNUaIUBJolCoBCQLGNsLe H/fBwIGd+L/ZYjro9HdET9C3LodSAdRDPB6rODwYnr66dSxXFEEk8Ay/Fju79otyAdXn 3BTrYmnBGyaISBLZhu57jyTFQD4WnZ4KVNfFe92NG5kxZgbN9+OYonx0RouyFerXQ0Oc bGnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=du7ju728DFWMo4ETtS7TFO8/lkkuq5igqBphwCCVEOs=; b=EmL6cCiWunpx/mM4EeCq8zl29ZN8t8mYJg79Q8+gsCy3bV6fbvJtif6YurMxSJABHw /+OpMEZpy1GHjHoQiphiGdb7CtRlz2z673ublOdKxq+PG7aDZd5nYNx/2j9Oc3LEO/JY HMWOgJzFLcczNtKKsn7xHXGAkeSH8Cw6theP+L4JjshfqK1PTkSzjWyevdE9PnhnioI0 AYyJFQIqYOIgAAGWYXxnA8KNRsWFO5MrD2Cp06/L6iy6J1qlSBJDNagWgnBTH/1jVyX0 jzULV5Yt4yavT2+vT9PKlT7lEuEuYeprx7PEdkSVsaR6nI25RChdHT9oYsMYlb3DRXbk XYzg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUXools2uPeb5H/6VLet9BaSZOrOBj1R/qsK5sZvZoFeWMf8HpB 68VlXTf6CkbW6ge8R2X4QefIKWNxCIL23Q37iXk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwFLc3IiJqjrXqjN4yxElC/H9ZuyNMsGbs0cq2RX7jXVlUkPvUh8O0jd8zg52liMhLLhxpOGimw6BI5j7uN954= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:2808:: with SMTP id c8mr1726953uac.49.1581446118669; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:35:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Christopher Browne Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:35:07 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022865a059e511e26" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000022865a059e511e26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike wrote: > My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how > unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could > be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, > but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using > one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it > seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, > xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in > mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from > the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, > because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the > language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No > model to speak of. > > Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our > "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I > think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use > iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a > real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. > > But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, > "enough!". > I recently saw indication that the UI for Sam and Acme were inspired by Oberon. (And per url [1] below, Rob Pike is quoted, sort of...) I'd be interested (and I think that's a TUHS thing ;-) ) in hearing some elaboration on that. All that is said is that "Rob was blown away" and that this "influenced" Sam/Acme; is there some further explanation of that worth pointing at? (Or are some Oberon fans putting words in mouths? ;-) ) [1] https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2011/006245.html -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" --00000000000022865a059e511e26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike &l= t;robpike@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
My general mood about the curren= t standard way of nerd working is how unimaginative and old-fashioned it fe= els. There are countless ways we could be interacting with our terminals, e= ditors, and shells while we program, but for various sociological and histo= rical reasons we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sur= e it's productive for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We coul= d be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophis= ticated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than = colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs= don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because they don't i= ntegrate well with the environment, only with the language. And they are ju= st lots of features, not a coherent vision. No model to speak of.

<= /div>
Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened w= ith our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get so= me inkling of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should p= rogram the way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interfa= ce work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. = We're missing out.

But I'm a grumpy old man = and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, "enough!".

--
When confronted by a difficult p= roblem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lon= e Ranger handle this?"
--00000000000022865a059e511e26-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id a655dce9 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:55:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 94A019CD82; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244669CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:13 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="NSBt7BTX"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 392359CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f41.google.com (mail-ua1-f41.google.com [209.85.222.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F9F49CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f41.google.com with SMTP id l6so4352363uap.13 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:55:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jd/6Om2UQzTLt+P60f7/FIaopK00FUb601UM6qGD/Zw=; b=NSBt7BTXmvdQkZQbUmiwuYZ5B9GwpnZtR0WlQvDMT9Bn0QfmfvSYJHBkQ3YNCHn+e9 U9EK+R5EsBJKhrnjqVchvSLDHUZWXP0zG4BooYFPnIXMDyTWf+wLD7Xdb66a9OeTmRAB 9UtTW7bvvo8ld9ivTLPZByIPxf1TaQs8PCW4VtkYU9kwcE+j3SeCrJcH0xuBzkWcS4Ql lUVA7+ryWHtB3yReNIy3oEm8iy02/9v6OWPtlfSFLPN3mV88McgP8oFKzVQyCM/0PCsT JrWxNUF2ctCd7A1ZJyhPyVuIFYIfCaH5e3Cq9RgHZKFIxrnCWqEFasBPlyeNZi3mUxlu /qBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jd/6Om2UQzTLt+P60f7/FIaopK00FUb601UM6qGD/Zw=; b=LOzaBbZOI8tQcdbg35jaFp47/UxuYXfFfwA3Pw346BDTejrg5l8XWuS84KvgE/7PLs cr7qgr0YldxClM6osauek2yfK6cvp+lOOjns/xfCkmmDMTi5uf03Fakj7/5ehHHSzq+2 4EASeJzieoto7SxXTixvLOBgSOnQ+UvwlmlxVmTNIfs2b9EMa2g+BXTwuoofb7RHWXFM inP9I8sbMes00sB6DBymoR05RWGbnInXwfoOSK752RiOXfappeUe7X8sZwfYpsYmBaZi pD+/AhyPWmnwszDVRIQUMHTPU/Pn+3HAPeGRPn14hOJjgdy9OqK7Hf9hkwzc6ZSC87UX JAZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVGjEwWK7UpV0x5cUjA1pBxrUANMnWvLcbOUPU/xZfsNL3KLkj4 tfqbZO8cJE2hMNfev80G9gYH+hlM3RgetZfVMFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw16hr7xWB/gaY8ScP0w3RpLXoLHOLm/ggRDnWQRtCB9rCdXHO+jldMYNXMyYgHBORRvFbMVarNu4hyllsXEAk= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:46c:: with SMTP id 99mr2457131uav.134.1581447308721; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:55:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 05:54:57 +1100 Message-ID: To: Christopher Browne Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001144b8059e5165db" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001144b8059e5165db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Acme was definitely inspired by Oberon the system. I visited ETH a number of times in the '80s and there were some properties of Oberon I found attractive. Acme definitely grew out of thinking I did there, but of course it was not tied to any language (unlike Oberon or an IDE), but rather integrated the Plan 9 command environment. Also, the button 3 context-getting thing was completely new, and when I spoke at ETH later about Acme, Wirth singled out that feature as something of interest. Sam predates all that. -rob On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 5:35 AM Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike wrote: > >> My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how >> unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could >> be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, >> but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using >> one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it >> seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, >> xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in >> mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from >> the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, >> because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the >> language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No >> model to speak of. >> >> Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our >> "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I >> think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use >> iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a >> real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. >> >> But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, >> "enough!". >> > > I recently saw indication that the UI for Sam and Acme were inspired by > Oberon. (And per url [1] below, Rob Pike is quoted, sort of...) > > I'd be interested (and I think that's a TUHS thing ;-) ) in hearing some > elaboration on that. All that is said is that "Rob was blown away" and > that this "influenced" Sam/Acme; is there some further explanation of that > worth pointing at? (Or are some Oberon fans putting words in mouths? ;-) ) > > [1] https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2011/006245.html > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > --0000000000001144b8059e5165db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Acme was definitely inspired by Oberon the system. I visit= ed ETH a number of times in the '80s and there were some properties of = Oberon I found attractive. Acme definitely grew out of thinking I did there= , but of course it was not tied to any language (unlike Oberon or an IDE), = but rather integrated the Plan 9 command environment. Also, the button 3 co= ntext-getting thing was completely new, and when I spoke at ETH later about= Acme, Wirth singled out that feature as something of interest.

Sam predates all that.

-rob

=

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 5:35 AM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is= how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we = could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we progr= am, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty mu= ch using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost = everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dy= namic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal co= de that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, whi= ch date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although t= hey are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the environmen= t, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a cohere= nt vision. No model to speak of.

Compare what happened w= ith our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" phones = in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think we'= ;re missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPhones, bu= t that there are fields where user interface work has made a real different= recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out.
But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren= should cry, "enough!".

I recently saw indication that the UI for Sam an= d Acme were inspired by Oberon.=C2=A0 (And per url [1] below, Rob Pike is q= uoted, sort of...)

I'd be interested (and = I think that's a TUHS thing ;-) ) in hearing some elaboration on that.= =C2=A0 All that is said is that "Rob was blown away" and that thi= s "influenced" Sam/Acme; is there some further explanation of tha= t worth pointing at?=C2=A0 (Or are some Oberon fans putting words in mouths= ?=C2=A0 ;-) )

--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it = to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
<= /div>
--0000000000001144b8059e5165db-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 61a83ed0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:37:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0BA0E9CD8E; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:37:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D31D9CD75; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:36:31 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="MyWMeZD/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2A2969CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:36:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com (mail-lj1-f177.google.com [209.85.208.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84AFA9CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:36:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id q8so13349811ljb.2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n37e5HMmTQlE9fB1UwAbbka82oCPgYAp7Id6q88Dm2Y=; b=MyWMeZD/U0pvKASVCUGqR8y69GmWgzGpx/OTbDn9uMN78BpS562hw46nTk6ZtR8lsp PGX89zz3g8OpCFeja2kT0qyeAIdePAJ9Rqnd8dN2U7hTe+4a5HR2QNGOISmG+/0Dq4ve ZP1VdRWbX9GP5kjqNVNLgK/txmLPO65xDu5uqM6B967D6BZ5g8ogEsZXUY9SBkyW4x3U zJ35wclGVCh1uDh19p6LEjaOBXpXz6ECjwEngLnBUIZuziKpGv5MDw0r+WKQd8SOCZDN VYaRIpRMXw/CIZ1oeERC5yVWG2gSzGidDU+jorBXdjd+US4pAZxVShc4ub7ijEnAjEc2 tt6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=n37e5HMmTQlE9fB1UwAbbka82oCPgYAp7Id6q88Dm2Y=; b=g6zsedev/O7x5ExAGnYGuTG/p9Yh5iaTwDITWLVMhFS9b6TCW5OnH9lo/L6zmht028 IGmLF5cyNNEQ7xcRSNuB/h2RToneuJTElYOLYyEet0wxODwZJJHYNSb+WBjQRuk8RQhP aCQZRkenBfbrG5FL5T32MC3OgH5UaXxsl29OUpnPUf6x/yezXGhOlBJlJnSZ1LC3UpnV 9FW5Ml0X/PepRxJtn4k8kX6zWpXU+7zp4tYkeu/ALjk4aajYG6RvIni9has60xQzedMQ DfdqSbgImoB0vToswLEOg7vMmEJ7NAQyAsbAT7Y6d8jOgMfpFpmgl8EO+OmzRFgX161Z LkQA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXD7I7HPV5qZoyVxtSpXZgtmz1a9N1cX49+u7TCYEKfWwko6NH5 iV/qQHnVvYcKSXN9v9EdSaQqHSai X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwO2ZDbrm4Y0AkzcIvisR42+8ayVyreCUPut490d8e/IA22Y0F0rXFVPJOdeoDS2l9M216sEA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9942:: with SMTP id r2mr5347376ljj.182.1581456984996; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:4643:10eb:0:4637:e6ff:fe8c:42e6? ([2001:4643:10eb:0:4637:e6ff:fe8c:42e6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p136sm2481709lfa.8.2020.02.11.13.36.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:36:24 -0800 (PST) To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> From: Harald Arnesen Message-ID: <8c64181d-1723-e14c-e2b3-85354a9de5f7@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:36:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Christopher Browne [11/02/2020 19.35]: > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" I wqould ask: "How would MacGyver handle this?". -- Hilsen Harald From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id b5923eb7 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 23:57:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 70F5B9CD75; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:57:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8E89CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:56:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 63BE79CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:56:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 044629CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:56:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1127316054; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:56:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:56:47 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Jon Steinhart Message-ID: <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Mail-Followup-To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.17-43-g63b6e03a OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Jon Steinhart wrote in <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com>: |Steffen Nurpmeso writes: |> Rob Pike wrote in |> : |>|My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how \ |>|unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways \ |>|we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells |>|while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons \ |>|we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive \ |>|for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be |>|doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisti\ |>|cated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other \ |>|than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s |>|via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, \ |>|because \ |>|they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. \ |>|And they are just lots of features, not a coherent |>|vision. No model to speak of. ... |> I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- |> thought, aka brain computer interfaces. (I personally am even ... |> Just last year i have seen a report on the current stage of |> affairs, Carnegie-Mellon and Minnesota Universities seem to have |> build a non-invasively controlled robotic arm, pretty high |> precision. ... |One way to look at it is that there are two stages to programming or any |other problem-solving discipline. First, clearly express the problem. |Second, implement a solution. I was impressed what Steve Johnson said at the Unix 50 celebration, about that AI program which learned a game from scratch in a few hours, just by interpreting "the pixels" that the game produces on the screen ... and became better than every human being. |There's been a lot of improvement in both of these areas during my \ |lifetime. | |Especially when I look at the "everybody must learn to code" movement I see |people looking for a magic bullet; they just want to think of something and |have it magically appear. Problem is that the thinking of something isn't |that easy. People want DWIT (do what I think), a step beyond DWIM :-) Maybe visualized impressions will be interpretable at one time. If i approach an "Oracle of Delphi" mind state with a "clear" picture of where i want to go to, where i want the entire thing to end up with, then i write good code. I had this not seldom when i was younger .. but maybe i just should take long walks more often again. Freud did one every day. Of course you are right, you will likely need to focus your mind, and that requires an intellectual context, knowledge, to base upon. That requires many small learning steps, that surely will not change. In fact in the western world times to learn are much too short in my opinion, the normal way of other cultures is a flatter learning curve, which gives humans more time for personal development. The latter in theory, of course. But an imbalance of technical knowledge and development of a personal state of mind results in things like "have it magically appear". This is not what i mean. I would rather like it like those magnet paint tablets from the 70s, where you paint something and then, swoosh, everything is clean and you start from scratch. This is nothing new, we had this in many Science-Fictions, but mostly with speech interaction, like "no, stop, not that; back two steps" or something like this. But by thought. I think it must be fun, today you see all the people looking into their smartphone, then you are surrounded by truly autistic persons! |I'm reminded of the awful virtual reality panel at SIGGRAPH some decades \ |ago |now where people stood up and said "with virtual reality there will be no |misunderstanding and people will be able to know exactly what you're \ |thinking." |My response was "wow, if people knew exactly what you were thinking \ |they'd kill |you." The fuzziness of our brains is an asset here, not a liability. \ | So I'm |not thinking that translating thoughts directly into programs is a \ |good thing. Killing is a trigger for the human brain for sure. Given the substantial amount of thoughts which are put into first person shooters, for the military and (other) young teenagers. One must face that many, many brains not only have a deficit in possible targets for thinking, but also lack the motivation or overall interest in developing them. Our educational system does not seem to be interested in addressing this issue either. |All that said, there is an area that I think needs some work, which \ |reminds me |that I wrote Tamara Munzner at UBC about this and need to ping her \ |again. My |current troublemaking project is to make an unfortunately necessary \ |change to |linux to accomplish something that I want to do. Because I haven't mucked |around in the kernel before I've been keeping notes as I try to figure \ |it out; |sort of a travelogue. Linux kernel, horrific. I currently write an audio-CD access tool for Linux (since cdparanoia and its successor cd-paranoia seem to be broken, and whereas cd-info seems to be ok its tarball is about 30 MB, and i thought i can fit this in about 10 KB, and i do rely on the kernel to drive /dev/cdrom for me, anyway, we are not in the 90s or so), and i had to look into the kernel source to figure out the actual limit, and why there is one, of the number of audio frames i can read at once. The good news: it is open source! (One may not read more than a second at once.) |One of the things that's important to me is writing code for the reader, \ |not |the writer. Being old, I remember working for companies where there was |warranty support for products, and that maintenance and support cost \ |way more |than development. So I've always written code for the maintainers \ |because I |never wanted to become one because nobody could figure out my code. That is fantastic. I absolutely agree, and how often have i trapped myself because of missing comments, or non-talking variable names. It is all so logical and clear when you actually write the thing down, you cannot imagine that you will be lost in a forest in just a few months from now. That is human brain pure. |Oh, Jon's rambling here, how is this relevant? Something that I never gave |much thought about until I was a reviewer for Tamara's book is that \ |my coding |style tries to maximize the brain's pre-attentive mode. A lot of hunting |around in code involves visually scanning for patterns (vgrep), and \ |one would |like to be able to do that in fixed time as opposed to linear time. | |In my opinion, the linux code sucks at this. The coding style of breaking \ |up |functions to keep the number of indent levels low has what I'm calling poor |"meatspace locality of reference." People have caches too, and we'd never |write code for a computer that thrashes as badly as code written for \ |people. With the exception of some overall comment blocks at the beginning of files, and from a very superficial point of view, i do agree. It seems to be expected that you carefully grasp the entire code context, so that the necessity for the rest has vanished by itself. I am not a kernel person, however. But mind you, that is just how it is with Linux. You do not even get an acknowledgement if you report dramatical kernel bugs. I think i reported four or five real in the ~9-10 months i now use Linux on bare metal, iof which two/three would have been deadly in earlier times (Linux kernel survives crashes of a thread). I did not get feedback for anything. But two were fixed as time went by, that is the good news. |Anyway, what I've been wondering about is whether anybody has examined the |UIs of different IDEs from a pre-attentive standpoint. One of the weird |things about how our brains manage pre-attentive mode is that there \ |are only |a handful of things that we can do in that mode before popping out, \ |and that |those things have weird interactions. So, for example, does coloring \ |things |work? Does bracket matching work? Do they still work if you do both? A |good thesis topic for someone younger than me. Interesting. I have bookmarked a presentation of her to look at when i have free time/download again. I would think substantial amount of money has been pumped in this area, but i never cared. I work best when i take a long walk in nature, and hope that i get kissed by the muse. ^_^ Then come back with a "mind map" of what there shall be. And implement it pretty naked vim(1). ^_^ It seems i do not do all that good enough today. What i think is that having those new possibilities could possibly attract more people. There are so many techniques to train your brain, to strengthen memory, for example, to memorize tremendous amount of data somehow, for example by "placing the data on a virtual walk through the flat", and similar techniques. If people had the option to use their very own imagination, and having computers map that, i think that would be interesting. So i think, whereas the actual diversity in between people is pretty minor, all that software now offers are colour themes and possibly 3-d effects and whatever, but that is all optics and has nothing much to do with touching peoples individual "brain needs", aka it does not reach into their inner world in order to, i just read that nice american term last week, "milk the shit out of it". ^_^ --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 97a6656b for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 445AE9CD7B; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:13:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA279CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 608C39CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from fourwinds.com (fourwinds.com [63.64.179.162]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 353C79CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:12:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01C0CqOs3910429 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:52 -0800 Received: from darkstar.fourwinds.com (jon@localhost) by darkstar.fourwinds.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 01C0CpEC3910426 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:52 -0800 Message-Id: <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Jon Steinhart To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Mail-Followup-To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-reply-to: <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Comments: In-reply-to Steffen Nurpmeso message dated "Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:56:47 +0100." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3910424.1581466371.1@darkstar.fourwinds.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:12:51 -0800 X-JON-SPAM: local delivery Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > Of course you are right, you will likely need to focus your mind, > and that requires an intellectual context, knowledge, to base upon. Interesting that you mention this as I'm about to leave for a multi-day advanced yoga workshop. One of the things that I like about yoga is that you do have to learn to focus your mind, and it's amazingly difficult to be focused on something as seemingly simple as standing up straight. I don't think that it's reasonable to expect people to be able to focus without training. Can you imagine if a computer tried to follow all of your fleeting thoughts? In some respects, this takes me back to the early days of speech recognition. I remember people enthusiastically telling me how it would solve the problem of repetitive stress injuries. They were surprised when I pointed out that most people who use their voice in their work actually take vocal training; RSIs are not uncommon among performers. So really, what problem are we trying to solve here? I would claim that the problem is signal-to-noise ratio degradation that's a result of too many people "learning to code" who have never learned to think. Much like I feel that it became harder to find good music when MIDI was invented because there was all of a sudden a lot more noise masquerading as music. I'm reminded of a Usenix panel session that I moderated on the future of window systems a long time ago. Rob was on the panel as was some guy whose name I can't remember from Silicon Graphics. The highlight of the presentation was when Robin asked the question "So, if I understand what the SGI person is saying, it doesn't matter how ugly your shirt is, you can always cover it up with a nice jacket...." While she was asking the question Rob anticipated the rest of the question and started unbuttoning his shirt. So maybe I'm just an old-school minimalist, but I think that the biggest problem that needs solving is good low-level abstractions that are simple and work and don't have to be papered over with layer upon layer on top of them. I just find myself without the patience to learn all of the magic incantations of the package of the week. Jon From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f9a1bffb for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 01:03:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B29709CD86; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:03:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E1B9CD75; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:03:02 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1581469395; bh=4nv2FvXn+eFUPPFV8yhS8mCsn73t5Dr+eyYuviJKBw8=; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: From; b=alWwlCH7dibqOFNUrKrEv79oKAj8/MKkcPuwShrxlNTv9yYLk1GMoM4vtX9i4Ge1Q toSoU6m13gCRg2XlrVUB7McLNSDVMF+kBjVOKgwByg0wOOiwacLnlIpTOCSoTpN6lg K2wTN9Mm5j5sZUboNLiFMql7dYEj8LbAmkufIceY= Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AA2D9CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:03:00 +1000 (AEST) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:03:00 +1000 From: Warren Toomey To: tuhs@tuhs.org Message-ID: <20200212010300.GA17986@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 04:12:51PM -0800, Jon Steinhart wrote: > > Of course you are right, you will likely need to focus your mind, > > and that requires an intellectual context, knowledge, to base upon. > > Interesting that you mention this as I'm about to leave for a multi-day > advanced yoga workshop. And at this point I'd recommend that we move some of this out to COFF as it's not Unix related. Don't forget that the mailing list archive is itself a living archive of Unix past and present: https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/ It now spans 25 years of postings. I really want it to have a high signal to noise level so that future archive readers can find good information. That's why COFF exists, so you can shoot the breeze and go off on tangents. I've noticed some of you are self regulating & moving over to COFFS. Excellent! Cheers, Warren From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3cc6a891 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 05:55:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7FE899CD9A; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 15:55:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551089CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 15:54:57 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="MzEjsfGt"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5519D9CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 15:54:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56E39CCA5 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 15:54:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id 1so436997uao.1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:54:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Wf1qK6ATZNQbkQup9UGbosBu09uN5Jt6KaBhL7MY7y8=; b=MzEjsfGtXVaV9eVN2/nrfUVlosutSEFlkfkZi+3K5FVu9admflqdAOwuZYar4mrFak XKL/xAk23WaoW7Rd0DNxeyT1EF6F4j3V69NKOJ1j8xujGZf/2uKNdLagH+v6jW+7vn6s V3KJesVtY3VwgNnAgvExUKcRNhMgPxJhvnuC+0yFxvDdF3EaWUN6y9/+t5gVJz0QBcM8 ba9eXSJcTX/Ubgs6vTD+vmZJvu7h2hVuWMUiamYVppBw1/53EqYxy9KlcXCEqJiU/Qh0 f7WFfWS5KItppAi54hF9QZx11E1LjChgmt296FUwcakpoSnzBfZ79mna4s4diUtZphw8 jLng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Wf1qK6ATZNQbkQup9UGbosBu09uN5Jt6KaBhL7MY7y8=; b=BNkXeO4Un1ZdY7egSdxpaKzGKza+u/qeEY8Xy76f2Uu2g7yDM+NibRLj/F3QtGQLbz 68UYWueScg/cwA+E5eQSC5hOjCk+Mz9smLW45Y425D0yPZ9sojPY1r4PMw9bNnqy5SdL MM/WkcPeKSngtGENQgh10oxNdM3kv85A0NoWuJsMm0sHsPBENzis02GLAUBra0Jr179V ZafUEv7KYNKkEm5u4XRYQCbRaOwpTSPLr3p4J+ulZhJ1UmCxhF4V7yOyYrohgiVd0D+M cNRXBWuxR0pwYfARuivFZWarlCsevlHzcLlo3BjDjlqZra6/XOL825OYOtbmiG0cXaff Sq1A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVtm+m8TNHC6vkRj9Ipmqeu12u89oJKs0C+vX94zQU55R3RjwvI xfwdVymvS0crD42b/rzrOkjAP67twQEgr3nDuuBZUfEO X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwGK38DkJLCBHAodUsfcmSeAOozk1rqP2nXuGDm3/VTVQLueQQDETzmeA/YepX+9ClL7xI1zo1X6w9I6MTJUc0= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:6509:: with SMTP id w9mr3715431uam.121.1581486892883; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 21:54:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002111826.01BIQp2A1764361@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200211235647.TB2C9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202002120012.01C0CpEC3910426@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Rob Pike Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:54:41 +1100 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077a2eb059e5a9c32" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000077a2eb059e5a9c32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Actually, I just took off a dull sweatshirt to reveal a bright shirt. -rob --00000000000077a2eb059e5a9c32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Actually, I just took off a dull sweatshirt to reveal a bright shirt.

-rob

--00000000000077a2eb059e5a9c32-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 76b61f97 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:35:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 921069B937; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:35:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7319B92A; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:34:39 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="cTIwJqSM"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id ABC039B92A; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:34:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f68.google.com (mail-ot1-f68.google.com [209.85.210.68]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D859B929 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:34:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f68.google.com with SMTP id 66so14210884otd.9 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pBSPRhYaoRMYSVHfWnPOSOr6X1sAUN4QLL3kUegbaJI=; b=cTIwJqSMV4NDJqI+t5vJzRocjKgUHxkMM5QZpLxGexhOq0Zu/tRDI5pO89VEPPzvbY VsX+9n4pxoCnB4S8ez2FSNWMl145dtyxcFoo6EKW5WwqL0WVL7Qu67ZTjd+cUR8/mWoX YmDxQN4U3u7BtVwdB2pYC14AFET1mNpewYOMgF/Rv2F7hhqajjhJ4tApI6FFOx6puNti JOTYmKr8/2aIpQZyphQK8uZU5N/HdqnjaEDE8tDhHp1jolrVl27vN/lM+4KRhxeDmVu3 zH05hGXbxLIov47/mTwD6SxWlwiWUsuyX9u1+3V1pKPeHskH9sELIsGYFRYQ2f1q4Akw 6WbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pBSPRhYaoRMYSVHfWnPOSOr6X1sAUN4QLL3kUegbaJI=; b=ZL2syCBBhtQ7ywOd/esiVwEnnalgKfVkEWXwO3OSNUWAAHSCl2BtUvTkFfdkp/nOri LxIS6V7VaC0O44rohTclMKQti5eaiwsTmQu6MdY2IPQ72zb8xFfNLDd9FseOd9W6LAAo 71oAMLlQxQJE++jMfypiGG1wMQazLOO8nMBrjqJaC+ssguMI9A0JK0KJuG9z+NLzkoGJ 4KpGMZva132GiLklnwyXNGJMwYsg5NzFGewsyS4oWy5CfnmDDAknAN6rwaRB1GlZej67 wH7MQ13q6AC0Wm5QOMDddEBoIimI9gJfitz9g/pScMNgOFpcRAwcZ+PH4rNi+ZBGfjyr 6iog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVHi5LEws7wmzidn5dPLuDBs4TfvBp7KQyeWSzjfWzI1yng6QHD p+SHN+YyEevQcuNXh/NeTdTGycDg1vEmtgh99SJNzQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwimRyegnz80qUYVJA737pkd/4wnUTtYzhj7CdGl+T6mazuUYr8cDDql8DjRFdrTwpulzXH90zWCLLSiGjg9vA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4cd:: with SMTP id s13mr9765905otd.181.1581888874146; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:34:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4a:a111:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:34:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20200211182238.GA5008@wopr> References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> <20200211170501.0N1Pu%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200211182238.GA5008@wopr> From: Wesley Parish Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:34:33 +1300 Message-ID: To: tuhs@tuhs.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" It's the stuff of SF - hopefully a lot better than the glorified "one-man shooter action" DooM fictionalizations we've seen (or not) so many of ... COFF's Harbour ... Wesley Parish On 2/12/20, Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 06:05:01PM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: >> >> I cannot imagine any other real step forward but control-by- >> thought, aka brain computer interfaces. > > I can't even trust computers to do the right thing with input specially > crafted for the program I'm using. There is no way in hell I'm turning > it loose on a direct neural interface. Software engineering, as a > discipline, is going to require a lot more actual discipline before > neural interfaces become anything but fuel for a dystopian hellscape. > > I'm not saying we can't get there. I'm saying we're not headed in that > direction so far. > > khm >