From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD5D289DC for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:05:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889CC43159; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 02:05:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AAEF4314A for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 02:05:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c980b55741so463766a91.2 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 09:05:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1720022711; x=1720627511; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WfXtTOF+qS/BLYbioiuax3kQ6biMXBs7tTH/1LzdFKM=; b=jWYDf3VGd6KBkLLqkUoZ7lmcPzSWOZiK/2ON83rQXUFqjZzY4gItFrzp6agf5f0+Pr vGEZBqeknXZZiHTPWS2WLtJRrng7Lsj14ohKErjquyMtrzUfuWkZdrIWBGK+pS4F0VvU y/smhTKpGcA07mzFFgt74LAFHKz/XKB9PZV/XIq79TxM8CNwvWqLPy6tNpLk2zOpKZGW 3+6I3xEy7VKlBJwKmAL1TK6KOsZ+kL2HYT7tZc3xNhIlSlNZLijXdXPPcYYaZnUfoCAh RFf2fHpKZQMpUUz1v+CqUPDf2yscfMFs/fOESN1q0MZGGSrszq+dY2uxLZEVteKgIOIg TsNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1720022711; x=1720627511; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WfXtTOF+qS/BLYbioiuax3kQ6biMXBs7tTH/1LzdFKM=; b=D13Ve+RpY0CxOqAmazIsPQxTo613iM7qxwKa9W9oRXTBUchbRDZrOolz27zhEv3uLt EIvI9ywf7vGgUE+ZFPLdJTEiGBufMid2xvxzJ0JEfD3fH3HvIDhga21FbBDuVZ8r+WUi X92gHqJtpBf+G5vfkUyN5CkUkQGqiA/e80ky4M1r1GKBMNWYNS/cevUkR9cO/s1A0LSA 6y48mElafmkJDFr4hRwiHFHCBQ6W7KVJoFeBepQblzHpj0yQxsU0UMiwowAATHnFljSr iX5b/AWrZw9+EPZw4zWqs1w7QJ7gTaUWKKeoBLO1xMuKJSXvb0IwYv5yElHjmwMUbFl1 K0Hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyY+qwXIttWJRpWM+aHAzI6uwDAEE90SksE2Gh6GAlMY6fDhS89 xrsu1xnZWI25xGwyrCt/T2rxm1PNRimbjD0b5MLc3K15e4rSAf8RCq4H+H7D08Qx7H9DHWP/kYO /YIwIjK1O5/3iQDVnezHZrkzMI5++OceV4QS2dGFVBNXJF5fXX1A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEdqvlQASHqse7QVO5Qy3LfNsYIS028XXt8axH/p995val/rod11I6tPe7xiiLGxDMSObSvjUCmdNT8bamoeU8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d106:b0:2c8:da73:af82 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c93d729fd2mr7526300a91.10.1720022711331; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 09:05:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93529CA0-7097-443C-999B-384BE6BD5683@canb.auug.org.au> <805f0ceb-c327-aaad-a13f-cfb3aab5c528@bitsavers.org> <06704bb6-f699-8407-5d73-bf2777374ca3@bitsavers.org> In-Reply-To: <06704bb6-f699-8407-5d73-bf2777374ca3@bitsavers.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 10:05:00 -0600 Message-ID: To: Al Kossow Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b7145c061c59fe9a" Message-ID-Hash: 4HACKSICHR3DBMBF4OGV2ICIA343VNOC X-Message-ID-Hash: 4HACKSICHR3DBMBF4OGV2ICIA343VNOC X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000b7145c061c59fe9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:01=E2=80=AFAM Al Kossow wrote= : > > On 7/3/24 8:17 AM, Vincenzo Nicosia wrote: > > > >> I think it would be terribly misleading to teach young CS students tha= t > >> software projects should be managed "as Unix v6 came to life". They wi= ll > >> never, ever find anything even close to that environment in a > >> professional workplace. > Also, it is unlikely they will ever bootstrap an operating system from > scratch. > No company would invest its resources doing so when they can find somethi= ng > for free that will be "good enough". > It isn't even likely they will implement any major new libraries or > compilers > and will just use what is out there already. Again, a project "make vs bu= y" > even if the "buy" is free as in beer. > Yea, even in the 80s when I was in school, the CS department switched from running the HW simulator on the HW in question, and we had to write everything to bring up the HW on the DEC-20 (well, simplified DEC-20) to linking in your code to the SunOS kernel on the 68k Sun3 machines that were plentiful and doing the debugging on real hardware. I'm not sure there's a lot of students that have done a full, from scratch, bootstrap of a real OS (or even a Toy one) these days... Though a lot of activity there has shifted to the cheap embedded world where it's easy to write a bare-metal app that has many of the features of an OS, but in some weird, specialized way. Warner --000000000000b7145c061c59fe9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:01=E2=80=AF= AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org= > wrote:
>= On 7/3/24 8:17 AM, Vincenzo Nicosia wrote:
>
>> I think it would be terribly misleading to teach young CS students= that
>> software projects should be managed "as Unix v6 came to life&= quot;. They will
>> never, ever find anything even close to that environment in a
>> professional workplace.
Also, it is unlikely they will ever bootstrap an operating system from scra= tch.
No company would invest its resources doing so when they can find something=
for free that will be "good enough".
It isn't even likely they will implement any major new libraries or com= pilers
and will just use what is out there already. Again, a project "make vs= buy"
even if the "buy" is free as in beer.

Yea, even in the 80s when I was in school, the CS department switc= hed from
running the HW simulator on the HW in question, and we h= ad to write everything
to bring up the HW on the DEC-20 (well, si= mplified DEC-20) to linking in your code
to the SunOS kernel on t= he 68k Sun3 machines that were plentiful and doing the
debugging = on real hardware. I'm not sure there's a lot of students that have = done
a full, from scratch, bootstrap of a real OS (or even a Toy = one) these days...=C2=A0 Though
a lot of activity there has shift= ed to the cheap embedded world where it's easy to
write a bar= e-metal app that has many of the features of an OS, but in some weird,
specialized way.

Warner
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