From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C94B21586 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 21:59:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E7143C2C; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:59:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A6EF427EF for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:59:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-6bce380eb96so883053a12.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 12:59:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718913572; x=1719518372; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=94hsE4RGhKf2CivN1ANmaTJ/Jwhia4GbomIvarlTzq8=; b=KyyxcGbjC5x4BeBZ/MT1390eOEXNHH3WKSEFgWLglPf6Ai6KcsdrlXqG0g+xiQS1B6 6UT+B67kog4rJGzcHZZ/pJ1bCAAyGl2/pgGzrz3K6Rhh3lTn/DI4qBw2IS/mP0p3tqxo Xequ1p3e3QOUIymZT2lKv4P16eLvLU9gr/CawDIBS6yj2nXpEITxDN8UeW3C5GqLuwb1 xWDJS7yCJCS3oMvdRVT6qwtGKXSR6AJlfl63PjKaypkjq0+vN+t8MCjYvNaqMnBi0qlM xrF8CLz7fg40otc++WSsgBGHaJB/AWgxLv0QOmeLauDXusek3U89vZCiv10U/aJcy3zA LyAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718913572; x=1719518372; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=94hsE4RGhKf2CivN1ANmaTJ/Jwhia4GbomIvarlTzq8=; b=RsIEGV8RKbP62mKANGpBsp6b8GhjSwy/bo0wx5hD2WYAgYDt+KJ08KNx5GGHIguCGR /pFOyGZKMoLKKEyHmM/Wr/LxgmrODs5WUdizx+nr7cei2c3jgI4xb39wHrltLWY3nDUk 3wXAJIyh/BPajguDV1E/BivWTtpeyEoRSMueBu/PQPHOx5WkrtwxEQEyEyxMWMO6jqC+ 8x18YDPVM47QwW6ei+vH9LfQKdb7oGjBj0aACM4ThQNhQGF9g1SPTt8zFTj+tK0lfvP1 vYi0BOcAt+WHHq6EXlGnNthzvXPNCS9Z7fIMBp9Mk4qqB8MZLXS85TIUoqdh4WWnQZ7K okjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzwoVw/zSuZJEFSiIjntKV9eTufhUTC56D+6Prf0ukY5lxTq9KG p19bj8IUmaY6Oc9kudKbGZDpUl2z2TcoBFEFIK9+DcVen91LXudTkJjUjkgJUmc0zm1b4f9IUVm t2N/qAOkvthxi6spBP/lIhN0i9yRCtGD6kHnYJXEIpVkrOgqlPtY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFd/mY5DPduCIuzialAUQWoKmcQKKYicQqfrFO3to/LZ8qPRJDf3SovbraBvJseqipojPwQn/+IG7MAlgoVgfE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1150:b0:2c4:a1c9:b76d with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c7b5d79e19mr6141141a91.37.1718913571821; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 12:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> <0e6792ed-65b0-e2e1-8159-6426a7f15a8d@riddermarkfarm.ca> <202406200501.45K5118a028500@sdf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:59:20 -0600 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d93280061b57c00f" Message-ID-Hash: TU3HBTRYLKHUK6G43M3EYGFE3ZPJJB4W X-Message-ID-Hash: TU3HBTRYLKHUK6G43M3EYGFE3ZPJJB4W X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d93280061b57c00f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For me, precomputing an environment is the same as a wysiwyg editor: what you see is all you get. If it works for you, and the environment that's inferred from predefined CPP symbols is correct, then it's an easy solution. When it's not, and for me it often wasn't, it's nothing but pain and suffering and saying MF all the time (also not Make File).... I was serious when I've said I've had more positive cmake experiences (which haven't been all that impressive: I'm more impressed with meson in this space, for example) than I ever had with IMakefiles, imake, xmkmf, etc... But It's also clear that different people have lived through different hassles, and I respect that... I've noticed too that we're relatively homogeneous these days: Everybody is a Linux box or Windows Box or MacOS, except for a few weird people on the fringes (like me). It's a lot easier to get things right enough w/o autotools, scons, meson, etc than it was in The Bad Old Days of the Unix Wars and the Innovation Famine that followed from the late 80s to the mid 2000s.... In that environment, there's one of two reactions: Test Everything or Least Common Denominator. And we've seen both represented in this thread. As well as the 'There's so few environments, can't you precompute them all?' sentiment from newbies that never bloodied their knuckles with some of the less like Research Unix machines out there like AIX and HP/UX... Or worse, Eunice... Warner On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:42=E2=80=AFPM Adam Thornton wrote: > > > Someone clearly never used imake... > > > There's a reason that the xmkmf command ends in the two letters it does, > and I'm never going to believe it's "make file". > > Adam > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:34=E2=80=AFAM Greg A. Woods wrote: > >> At Thu, 20 Jun 2024 01:01:01 -0400, Scot Jenkins via TUHS >> wrote: >> Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix >> philosophy' The Register >> > >> > "Greg A. Woods" wrote: >> > >> > > I will not ever allow cmake to run, or even exist, on the machines I >> > > control... >> > >> > I'm not a fan of cmake either. >> > >> > How do you deal with software that only builds with cmake (or meson, >> > scons, ... whatever the developer decided to use as the build tool)? >> > What alternatives exist short of reimplementing the build process in >> > a standard makefile by hand, which is obviously very time consuming, >> > error prone, and will probably break the next time you want to update >> > a given package? >> >> The alternative _is_ to reimplement the build process. >> >> For example, see: >> >> https://github.com/robohack/yajl/ >> >> This example is a far more comprehensive rewrite than is usually >> necessary as I wanted a complete and portable example that could be used >> as the basis for further projects. >> >> An example of a much simpler reimplementation: >> >> >> http://cvsweb.NetBSD.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/external/mit/ctwm/bin/ctwm/Makef= ile?rev=3D1.12&content-type=3Dtext/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=3DMAIN >> >> -- >> Greg A. Woods >> >> Kelowna, BC +1 250 762-7675 RoboHack >> Planix, Inc. Avoncote Farms >> > --000000000000d93280061b57c00f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For me, precomputing an environment is the same as a = wysiwyg editor: what you see is all you get. If it works for you, and the e= nvironment that's inferred from predefined CPP symbols is correct, then= it's an easy solution. When it's not, and for me it often wasn'= ;t, it's nothing but pain and suffering and saying MF all the time (als= o not Make File)....=C2=A0 I was serious when I've said I've had mo= re positive cmake experiences (which haven't been all that impressive: = I'm more impressed with meson in this space, for example) than I ever h= ad with IMakefiles, imake, xmkmf, etc...=C2=A0 But It's also clear that= different people have lived through different hassles, and I respect that.= ..

I've noticed too that we're relatively = homogeneous these days: Everybody is a Linux box or Windows Box or MacOS, e= xcept for a few weird people on the fringes (like me). It's a lot easie= r to get things right enough w/o autotools, scons, meson, etc than it was i= n The Bad Old Days of the Unix Wars and the Innovation Famine that followed= from the late 80s to the mid 2000s.... In that environment, there's on= e of two reactions: Test Everything or Least Common Denominator. And we'= ;ve seen both represented in this thread.=C2=A0 As well as the 'There&#= 39;s so few environments, can't you precompute them all?' sentiment= from newbies that never bloodied their knuckles with some of the less like= Research Unix machines out there like AIX and HP/UX...=C2=A0 Or worse, Eun= ice...

Warner

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:42=E2= =80=AFPM Adam Thornton <athornton= @gmail.com> wrote:


Someone clearly never used imake...

There's a re= ason that the xmkmf command ends in the two letters it does, and I'm = never going to believe it's "make file".

Adam

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:34=E2=80=AFAM Greg A. Woods <woods@robohack.ca> w= rote:
At Thu, 20= Jun 2024 01:01:01 -0400, Scot Jenkins via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philos= ophy' The Register
>
> "Greg A. Woods" <woods@robohack.ca> wrote:
>
> > I will not ever allow cmake to run, or even exist, on the machine= s I
> > control...
>
> I'm not a fan of cmake either.
>
> How do you deal with software that only builds with cmake (or meson, > scons, ... whatever the developer decided to use as the build tool)? > What alternatives exist short of reimplementing the build process in > a standard makefile by hand, which is obviously very time consuming, > error prone, and will probably break the next time you want to update<= br> > a given package?

The alternative _is_ to reimplement the build process.

For example, see:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://github.com/robohack/yajl/
This example is a far more comprehensive rewrite than is usually
necessary as I wanted a complete and portable example that could be used as the basis for further projects.

An example of a much simpler reimplementation:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://cvsweb.NetBSD.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/external/mit/ctwm/bin/ctwm/Make= file?rev=3D1.12&content-type=3Dtext/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag= =3DMAIN

--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg A. = Woods <gwoods@acm.or= g>

Kelowna, BC=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 250 762-7675=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <wood= s@planix.com>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>
--000000000000d93280061b57c00f--