From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22108 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2022 15:27:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Sep 2022 15:27:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9A940A0A; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 01:26:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com (mail-vs1-f48.google.com [209.85.217.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D035440A09 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 01:26:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id h1so7084802vsr.11 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:26:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=DWeUeYHMBMqbih01gSS/xtmu2ZcxoC5h89ohtpW8hc8=; b=PpfxPXzJ5vysKF6YYA2TfE4pcOYj+xh9tPHtG40HDwblPi5vJ9qrxbFUUUuPx62aKS FLr8c30sbAX9/CPpilSOyphnNOwQK+xhPiyL4V7YZAT9R87MA9gtUR26n1cph/9AEd3z /VPIWEjGAbD7sYa4oKhi9Yv/FI1LEWjmc9KFlX32eE+kP5YSfkIdpkGU4Iu7UJmkNwoM 8OzXKOH62RhBvSls51f4EI9+XBxgoeBbyR7e5IdGGNRs+9ooClzhaidmr4S+1DdWV4oe GeUe/2dPWDVIC9U6BNhRFG/ka3oB+8D3XJVaT1A7S+ggKvOCO9sza3PSqw3ur8Ll1tvK KZgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=DWeUeYHMBMqbih01gSS/xtmu2ZcxoC5h89ohtpW8hc8=; b=HNRxZodT0zVjOFdmwhGwre4XSWkXua11YsxOU1cQFR+XQIal7dA+h/F8frKwRH77YH SJduHMSo1WaWKtEabvOO/rXSINmlwTyDTV32UzcAYbeZhiUs7h7d7Da1lLTvY+AGwp9z +J7PXf81T6yBobNtv3nGyuyOWmTAQYbIOLUa23euVCv3vrVdAtGUQTS67ifAEGfU6UiY 9+5L7VpWHQwMbhMmnToTf0ZLz5xYl7GBuOhcFLyAiFXLFIGrrcdxNTrXJ7bo268AJymS GKxoYdUugQt/B1yFBPy8j2npD839OCgHzTPA8wnoqCqOXojz8OmIXD2B1oe1E0jmcFK7 JWpg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2mPUVMjrrwwkaqYULZlLqhITW0PVL78MhzXxcyBnmbCQv1xpqv gV8KLh1MCfvJG2PiSFOglNbiOMv/3wEMJlpvfX3JeIEbwjo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7zByPyOratkO3bABoFE/QMJ3+GF0dLcYC9ucorx9MyhdW/BdkvNwf1UfM50FV+O/rQvcw0HMTPQddUVX/98Gk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:b209:0:b0:397:1b01:4223 with SMTP id b9-20020a67b209000000b003971b014223mr10520856vsf.67.1663773921857; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:25:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 09:25:10 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009963d605e9318d94" Message-ID-Hash: OKSDR5FSF5IHU7RT5CQI362XJ7STTYQI X-Message-ID-Hash: OKSDR5FSF5IHU7RT5CQI362XJ7STTYQI X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: Re: Early BSD license thread List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009963d605e9318d94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 8:59 AM Clem Cole wrote: > below in blue ... > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 9:47 AM Warner Losh wrote: > >> ... >> >> So, maybe it did happen, but I find no extant evidence of a copyright >> being >> removed and replaced by Berkeley. If anything, once files started being >> marked >> with a copyright notice, they seem to be retained over several releases >> and >> on the 2BSD series where the code was merged into. >> >> On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 6:36 AM Rob Pike wrote: >> >>> It was a long time ago but it rankled at the time (and even came up in >>> my Bell Labs interview): that copyright notice replaced whatever was th= ere >>> before. Code written and copyrighted by other institutions was absorbed >>> into the Berkeley distribution and reattributed without credit. Joy tol= d me >>> later that the lawyers made them do it. He was probably telling the tru= th, >>> but that didn't make it OK. >>> >>> -rob >>> >> I think there are two different concepts that are getting mixed up here. > The legal term '*copyright*' and historical term of '*provenance*.' I > agree with Warner that I know of few if any cases where copyright was not > maintained when it was in the code itself. And as he points out, please > grep through the archives and I think that will be found to hold true. > > But I also think Rob rankle comment is fair. Joy and was noted for > recognizing cool ideas and adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX. The line at > the time was he took ideas and '*peed on them to make them smell like > Berkeley*.' For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came from Kulp via Europe > and MIT, the network stack famously started at BBN, and a lot of the > support for limits and user controllers from Australia. > > Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation as well as > integration, but the line between the two was not always easy to see from > the outside. And I think developers outside of UCB sometimes felt (to us= e > Rob's words) 'rankled' for CSRG getting credit for some of innovation tha= t > really belonged to others, because the CSRG team was the distribution > vehicle. > That makes a lot of sense. When there was a name, it was preserved, but a huge amount of the sources had nothing at all in the source files to identify it. One big area of contribution was into the kernel where the options sometimes contained the name of where the code came from. In the 2BSD kernels we see eg TEXAS_AUTOBAUD, MENLO_OVLY, MENLO_KOV, MENLO_JCL, MPX_FILS, CGL_RTP and a bunch of UCB_ names. It's clear the non UCB ones came from elsewhere, but there's no info on where they came from (they are documented in setup.5 at least so I know what they are). So given the sparseness of the early marking for provenance, the coments make more sense and give a better timeframe to it. Warner=E1=90=A7 --0000000000009963d605e9318d94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 8:59 AM Clem = Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= /div>
below in blue ...

On W= ed, Sep 21, 2022 at 9:47 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
...

So, maybe it did happen, but I find no extant evidence of a copyright b= eing
removed and replaced by Berke= ley. If anything, once files started being marked
with a copyright notice, they seem to be retained over seve= ral releases and
on the 2BSD serie= s where the code was merged into.

= On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 6:36 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
It was a long ti= me ago but it rankled at the time (and even came up in my Bell Labs intervi= ew): that copyright notice replaced whatever was there before. Code written= and copyrighted by other institutions was absorbed into the Berkeley distr= ibution and reattributed without credit. Joy told me later that the lawyers= made them do it. He was probably telling the truth, but that didn't ma= ke it OK.

-rob
I think there are two different= concepts that are getting mixed up here.=C2=A0 The legal term 'copy= right' and historical term of 'provenance.'=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with Warner tha= t I know of few if any cases where copyright was not maintained when it was= in the code itself.=C2=A0 And as he points out, please grep through the ar= chives and I think that will be found to hold true.=C2=A0

But I also think Rob rankle=C2=A0comment is fair.=C2=A0=C2= =A0Joy=C2=A0and was noted for rec= ognizing cool ideas and adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX.=C2=A0=C2=A0The line at the time was=C2=A0he took ideas=C2=A0and 'peed on = them to make them smell like Berkeley.'=C2=A0For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came= from Kulp via Europe and MIT,=C2=A0the = network stack famously started at BBN, and a = lot of the support for limits and user controllers from=C2=A0Australia= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation a= s well as integration, but the line between the two was not always easy to = see from the outside.=C2=A0 And I think developers outside of UCB sometimes= felt (to use Rob's words) 'rankled' for CSRG getting credit fo= r some of innovation that really belonged to others, because the CSRG team = was the distribution vehicle.
<= div>
That makes a lot of sense. When there was a name, it was= preserved, but a huge amount of the sources had nothing at all in the sour= ce files to identify it. One big area of contribution was into the kernel w= here the options sometimes contained the name of where the code came from. = In the 2BSD kernels we see eg TEXAS_AUTOBAUD, MENLO_OVLY, MENLO_KOV, MENLO_= JCL, MPX_FILS, CGL_RTP and a bunch of UCB_ names. It's clear the non UC= B ones came from elsewhere, but there's no info on where they came from= (they are documented in setup.5 at least so I know what they are). So give= n the sparseness of the early marking for provenance, the coments make more= sense and give a better timeframe to it.

Warner=E1=90=A7
--0000000000009963d605e9318d94--