From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14863 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2022 20:26:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Dec 2022 20:26:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B423423A1; Fri, 23 Dec 2022 06:26:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f42.google.com (mail-ej1-f42.google.com [209.85.218.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 339BB42398 for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2022 06:26:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f42.google.com with SMTP id tz12so7465109ejc.9 for ; Thu, 22 Dec 2022 12:26:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GnuTQ1wv1CV9oCmXx4jfpdX0HmmbT12/uxJ15PmKYas=; b=s1KDW/JYOXivtrYd7ABYDDUmUZi/YLTRn0bpmkz7MHHgDxmx6tib5miIAmEc9RCr1C GH+3lwT7SnFM+FF4myPGk6x48O5vBHW9vP2FVZOWJgbKp2L2kF8+ZJsoyfkSP9l32iF1 vlgKHzAAP1mllV96MLxOvXvtvAzVZJOhwnHsjznW6+dpbTmmTlA0Q+5H5ziUQAH6N97w Wbikx6s86JzakUqOn5lhyLcSXVxnBq/GUUPDDhBdrhGqFuc02q1mVGQSYU+IblYYPg0e TYkVeofJeW/Rtm5fFpW/eU4FUmOr8qFO5ZLAkPYBvjHyvaDfUEXSUZs4s41S/+cSIXaS 1iyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=GnuTQ1wv1CV9oCmXx4jfpdX0HmmbT12/uxJ15PmKYas=; b=cqqu++21EWW+4XJQlYyepXcvdbeyFIfSPNmGqoTCClimrBLDbs8I/98z+zGRVPRsPD GwYGHPUHVwCzOqZl8BgMwUdDbHuKdcVBRgvLY5fGjaz7IVxcJ5lq1/F1/rj2Ehmvu5b/ deZcYzVA3FgH5luxRM6FqAm6T/eKDC8Wk+zRgsJlhfn0xnEjuQNLOiUOHUYSI4hzQXYM WQJRh8ic8+DYfxIQigOu6UDpHL2dNvTS3fb3WQAhI+kGO3xVgh//N/+loEn9uEVWmTLr D0/Yb6vPcpdgn85gjCIv9jge5Cjc7Ww3AcfF+VSMVmGhi80+1hsn5VVr8dNEQQ0Eb+ZO HN0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kruyxQYz9NVjySu3Z86gAK4/COkOxkeykRjlgDQL36Z8Ql1mkNP jG8+JKs/rXSsqpPI5Oc9RjYQOlz9RjqllLPqxsDJVTtUllidTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuUIl2Mk9h8IxiB+fdC1wF6GuRsrznghZhgdn/x9sxqTfGaof0pNXBZYoyt8dr2peYzt4SHKiDFuR1soZQRcJA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:5646:b0:7c0:fa92:713 with SMTP id v6-20020a170906564600b007c0fa920713mr389724ejr.634.1671740723419; Thu, 22 Dec 2022 12:25:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20221222172654.965D618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20221222172654.965D618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 13:25:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Noel Chiappa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9effb05f07077ac" Message-ID-Hash: WXY5XZ4CBKEE7IVLF4VVVVY4N25QWPFV X-Message-ID-Hash: WXY5XZ4CBKEE7IVLF4VVVVY4N25QWPFV X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX on (not quite bare) System/370 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f9effb05f07077ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 10:27 AM Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Bakul Shah > > > There is a further para: > > > Reducing external memory fragmentation to zero by utilizing the VAX- > > 11/780 memory mapping hardware for scatter loading is high on the > list > > of things to do in the second implementation pass. > > I'm curious as to exactly what is meant by "external memory"? They must > mean > memory on the Synchronous Backplane Interconnect: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Synchronous_Backplane_Interconnect > > I.e. what most of us would call 'main memory'. > > If this code didn't even allocate main memory by pages, instead of in > process-size blocks, it sounds like it's much like 32V (or is it 32V that's > being discussed; I thought this thread had moved on to the Reiser demand > paging version - my apologies it I've gotten lost). > > > Also, this note: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:CB-UNIX > > from Dale DeJager (which he kindly gave me permission to post) It's quite similar to a note he posted to I think unix-wizards mailing list back in the late 80s. I found it for my early unix talk and it's why I call cbunix the first fork. gives a fair > amount of detail on the relationship between the Research and CB/UNIX > versions, with a brief mention of USG - precisely the era, and > relationships, > that are so poorly documented. Interestingly, he indicates that the early > versions of what later became CB/UNIX used something in the V1/V3 range (V4 > was the first one in C), so it dates back earlier than most people > apparently > assume. > For my early unix talk, I think I pegged that at V2. Running on the 11/20 coupled with V3 manual strongly suggesting running on 11/20 would be better with v1 or v2. If anyone else has any first-hand notes (i.e.from people who were there at > the > time), about the relationship between all the early systems, for which the > author has given permiosssion to post it, please send it to me and I will > add it to the appropriate article on the CHWiki > The source I had said it was NJ Bell that did the productization of v2 in 1972 or 1973 for the SCCS project. I have a memory of reading somewhere that Columbus took over maintenance once they deployed and out of that grew cbunix. I'll see if I can find that again. It matches other things I've read that Columbus provided support for the operating companies deploying unix. Warner Probably the most needed is more about the roots of USG; Dale has filled in > CB/UNIX, and the roots of PWB are covered fairly well in the BSTJ article > on it: > > https://archive.org/details/bstj57-6-2177 > > at least, for PWB1. Anything that covers the later PWBs would likewise be > gratefully receied. > > > I suppose I should also write up the relationships of the later UNIXen - > 32V > and its descendants too - any material sent to me about them will be most > gratefully received. (If anyone want a CHWiki account, to write it up > themselves, please let me know). > > Noel > --000000000000f9effb05f07077ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 10:27 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Bakul Sha= h

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is a further para:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 Reducing external memory fragmentation to zero by = utilizing the VAX-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 11/780 memory mapping hardware for scatter loading= is high on the list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 of things to do in the second implementation pass.=

I'm curious as to exactly what is meant by "external memory"?= They must mean
memory on the Synchronous Backplane Interconnect:

=C2=A0 http://gunkies.org/wiki/= Synchronous_Backplane_Interconnect

I.e. what most of us would call 'main memory'.

If this code didn't even allocate main memory by pages, instead of in process-size blocks, it sounds like it's much like 32V (or is it 32V th= at's
being discussed; I thought this thread had moved on to the Reiser demand paging version - my apologies it I've gotten lost).


Also, this note:

=C2=A0 http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:CB-UNIX

from Dale DeJager (which he kindly gave me permission to post)
=

It's quite si= milar to a note he posted to I think unix-wizards mailing list back in the = late 80s. I found it for my early unix talk and it's why I call cbunix = the first fork.

gives a fair
amount of detail on the relationship between the Research and CB/UNIX
versions, with a brief mention of USG - precisely the era, and relationship= s,
that are so poorly documented. Interestingly, he indicates that the early versions of what later became CB/UNIX used something in the V1/V3 range (V4=
was the first one in C), so it dates back earlier than most people apparent= ly
assume.

For my early unix talk, I think I pegged that at V2. Running on the = 11/20 coupled with V3 manual strongly suggesting running on 11/20 would be = better with v1 or v2.

If anyone else has any first-hand notes (i.e.from people who were there at = the
time), about the relationship between all the early systems, for which the<= br> author has given permiosssion to post it, please send it to me and I will add it to the appropriate article on the CHWiki

The source I had said it was= NJ Bell that did the productization of v2 in 1972 or 1973 for the SCCS pro= ject. I have a memory of reading somewhere that Columbus took over maintena= nce once they deployed and out of that grew cbunix. I'll see if I can f= ind that again. It matches other things I've read that Columbus provide= d support for the operating companies deploying unix.

Warner

Probably the most needed is more about the roots of USG; Dale has filled in=
CB/UNIX, and the roots of PWB are covered fairly well in the BSTJ article on it:

=C2=A0 https://archive.org/details/bstj57-6-2177=

at least, for PWB1. Anything that covers the later PWBs would likewise be gratefully receied.


I suppose I should also write up the relationships of the later UNIXen - 32= V
and its descendants too - any material sent to me about them will be most gratefully received. (If anyone want a CHWiki account, to write it up
themselves, please let me know).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Noel
--000000000000f9effb05f07077ac--