From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5df99b2a for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:19:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D97B19B9BA; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 05:19:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA149480D; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 05:18:28 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="0Mpg6tKg"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A1D139480D; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 05:18:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f182.google.com (mail-qt1-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A313E94797 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 05:18:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f182.google.com with SMTP id o12so5879101qtf.3 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:18:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fSF9J/FTzNx/B92uodrB5WR0RBvcQ5I8WN2ibXZmqK0=; b=0Mpg6tKghF1vTM9xgscE8z3qYCMFkMQ0tAFHYx0L9nQYinq8j+HlEjpSt/wi4UhTYa yM3CgjJ9OD0ceAYgHqdjiR+RowcHfw5XnbnrF2tUALpN+FBexBRcwBq4XyQ6JYtJYsTx 0yjvkCsIp2t+Im8di1Vx5IoTFNfdbaYBZ/O3BlSjm38d0xSikUYmkEQJ5coaaznYpbV2 8gqRRu6cXGk7jAs9D0+OMK4nDMa9dHEWfKQAe7mX+j1gHkw02JlsW77sRHc0TFGqBpgN OIMDIvcLner3vHArhQ9pB0vAiYAIN/NcSMGIXmt52cseF5uzgA8LRKFiVTqbuixQTq9q RJvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fSF9J/FTzNx/B92uodrB5WR0RBvcQ5I8WN2ibXZmqK0=; b=jOkDSiGAQ5apE1wjwCUCaCymlTSywlBTC2Zc1J5H3pb0rs01hVlP9LXtMxrsm6lQjM S1u/I1D9kNI67n6jth7JsFaxueR9MiAPKvpRQ38mhL8E6EnRJEFM1sTDfcXjrvB5gTtF hsy8AfqaNhDyKmlvTotbWx5WbwPI7L5HN3MZtXg6gJIGP0a5jzZsHEf19zfEaTeQ8dc1 sYtR/8Pl+CQ6hy7YcLLyrnv1qKhWs45I4XF1A0AU8IEaKYkV/Qi5xpaCpRXIN+IC5jQP 7ibMLMXeDlOu6fHM3Et3x+KLnoh9rwZ4VgbwAFV+MLqwOPefqV7TC+Y5DXa6U+3+avrA Qwdg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWyV+v76dl3XMcntJo+Vg1UAgReIdIshZGmb5ELa2i1yZdBpyG+ eb8Ua1IjyuvRnYIxp3mPD40PPRqKlUmRmjWnlGUCTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzajlYBn51D3sqBHBF1BF15+/6eZTnWjKCv7bEB+X3UhlKD8AIvC64M7EORITnq3vkSCVQ/sU7DrSPJ0Thk5Zg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:44c9:: with SMTP id b9mr392532qto.175.1568747903487; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:18:16 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000879d3a0592c495ec" Subject: Re: [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000879d3a0592c495ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Another thought -- the first commercial licensee was Rand. Hired some > former Harvard students who brought UNIX with them. You probably need to > add things like Rand Ports (a.k.a. named pipes) which came from there. > Also Chesson and Co did the original ArpaNET NCP at University of Ill > with some help from the Rand folks. That was done on a V6 system ~ 1978 > When I worked at The Wollongong Group they were quite specific that they had their license from V6 days, that it was a one-off that has unusually favorable terms, and that it was the first licensee. But that may be the first license to redistribute, rather than the first commercial user to be licensed... I think for an expanded version of my talk, I'd include the other details, since there's both the NCP work and some TCP work with v7 in our archive these days. I'll add a bullet point for these things. V6/V7 is the time that derivatives and add-ons really start to appear in relative abundance. You also need need Ken's famous V6 'patch' tape -- that 'leaked' > I'll see if I can work that in.. Is that the famous '50 patches' or is that something else? On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:02 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> BTW: I just thought of something else.... one of the b*tched about the >> commercial redistribution license from V7 in 1979, that was not fixed until >> the SVR3 licensing the mid-late 1980s was AT&T's source policy. As I >> said, a commercial source license was $20K for the first CPU and 5K for >> each additional one. Later (System V) it went to $50K for the first and >> $10K for each additional. But what really ticked off the vendors like >> DEC, Masscomp, Sun et al, was that each system that sources on was supposed >> to one of the 'second CPU licenses' - the binary license was not good >> enough. >> >> What most of us did, was make sure any system that was a 'source control' >> or 'master' system at any 'site' had a full source license, but we were all >> in violation of the source agreement on our personal workstations. The >> argument was the sources on people's machines was ephemeral and not >> 'stored' there. But it was definitely contentious. >> > Yea, I think that all these details are (a) interesting but (b) not quite right for this talk... Warner > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 3:47 PM Clem Cole wrote: >> >>> slide 4 -- All of HP-UX, Ultrix and Digital UNIX/Tru64 are BSD >>> kernels. HP-UP and Tru64 support System V calls. >>> >>> BTW: DG-UX and Stratus built their own kernels, but used System V >>> command systems and System Call definitions - which are not listed. >>> >>> Slide 6 - if you want it I have another picture of the GE system from >>> some of their literature has a view of all of the components. Send me >>> email if you want it. >>> >>> Slide 8 - Sets out to write version of Fortran came up with B. Uses B >>> to write Assembler >>> >>> Slide 9 - Wrong DEC logo. Should be the Blue one. The maroon version >>> does not show up until the 1990s with Bob Palmer (and has bad memories for >>> some of us). >>> >>> Slide 17 - Ken write PDP-11 assembler on PDP-7 in B. , Dennis starts to >>> rewrite B compiler to output PDP-11 code. >>> >>> Slide 18 - B begins to become different enough that Dennis starts to >>> call it nb [new B], eventually deviates enough to become new language >>> >>> Slide 19 - 4th Edition release outside of the BTL. Lou Katz >>> becomes 'user zero' >>> >>> Slide 20 -- We need to get you the site and group name from Mash. It >>> was not in Summit, it was not USG - but was in NJ. I thought it was Homdel >>> but I that is purely speculation. >>> Also the role of Columbus team needs to be defined. >>> Ask Mary Ann. >>> >>> Slide 21 -- I'm not going to argue - but I would ask you to add a >>> disclaimer. This is what you could reconstruct, but there is some >>> question of some of the arrows. Heinz might be able to help, but as >>> Stienhart and I have said, its believed to be in LA; but no one has tracked >>> him down as he has been pursuing non-computer interests. >>> >>> Slide 22 --4th Edition went to Katz that this is wrong, who sometimes >>> reads this mailing list. If not, send me a note, I'll reintroduce you. He >>> might be able to give you a data. Check with Warren, my >>memory<< is that >>> some of userland is still in C although a lot assembler is still there. >>> >>> Slide 23 -- ??widespread?? -- I'm not sure I would use that. Not even >>> 100 sites yet. Also there were not "commercial version" this was the >>> first "commercial license" -- big difference [contact me if you want >>> explanation]. IIRC fee was 15K per CPU. Commercial redistribution doesn't >>> occur until after 7th is released and was a separate license. I would >>> add, Mike Lesk's portable C library is starting to be used, but most C >>> program do their own I/O with read/write >>> >>> First real install man page and Dennis build tape installation >>> system. Earlier version released as RK05 disk copies. >>> Also numerous new peripherals. IIRC Support for the 11/40 >>> starts here, 4th & 5th needed a 45 class, and earlier used the 20 with the >>> CSS MMU. >>> >>> Slide 24 -- CMU uses it to teaches OS class. makes student in class >>> sign a sub-license. >>> >>> Slide 25 - missing the first USENIX tapes. which include Harvard and the >>> like. Warren and I can probably help a little here. >>> >>> Slide 26 - new licenses. Commercial license fees change to 20K for 1st >>> CPU/5K for each CPU afterward. CMU buys first commercial license to use >>> UNIX to make money [after Cole and Klein go on strike]. Case Western >>> follows suit 6month later. AT&T agrees for the Universities that they >>> only had to declare one CPU as commercial and could intermix otherwise and >>> notifies all the universities that if they were using it for commercial >>> purposes, then needed a license. >>> >>> AT&T creates first redistribution license. Needed at least one $20K >>> commercial CPU and then $150k for the rights to redistribute. Originally >>> $1K per binary CPU. >>> >>> Slide 27 -- missing Purdue Dual Vax and CMU Mach >>> >>> Slide 28 - APS had NH which was the model the DEC plate you show. >>> Maddog has it now on his Jeep when aps moved to CA (he also has the NH >>> Linux plate but I don't remember the car -- you can ask him). I have had >>> the Massachusetts UNIX plate since 1983 (it's on my model S of course). >>> ghg has indiana from around the same time (I think on a pickup). wnj had >>> the CA vmunix on his Ferrari, but I don't know if he still has it or what >>> its on. >>> >>> Slide 29 - Look in HenrySpencer-TUHS.org -- you'll find tail but not >>> head. >>> >>> Slide 31 - Job Control can from Europe via MIT. Jim Kulp wrote it. >>> Noel and I can give you the story if you want it. It was on the PDP-11 >>> there. Joy modified csh and added it to 4.1 >>> >>> Slide 32 -- JC was not from UCB. Joy got it from MIT -- Dennis >>> create ENV and it was first distributed in V7. >>> >>> Slide 33 -- No Bourne supported ENV in the new shell -- see me earlier >>> email for how all this went down or ask Steve yourself. >>> >>> Slide 34 -- PCC was included, but the Ritchie Compiler (a.k.a. >>> Typesetter C) was the default compiler. You are missing a step BTW -- >>> typesetter C was released between V6 and V7. As is the first draft of the >>> White Book. The new compiler had stdio but targets V6. >>> Also mpx was part of DataKit support. >>> >>> Slide 35 -- Not sure that is true. I thought Microsoft's Xenix ships >>> before Venix. Particularly since you made the comment about System III >>> The original 8086 Xenix was a pure V7 port, with a few additions Gordon >>> brought with him from Purdue (i.e. ghg hacks). >>> >>> Slide 52/53/54/55 -- wrong logo (see above) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:21 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>> >>>> OK. I've shared my slides for the talk. >>>> >>>> Some of the family trees are simplified (V7 doesn't have room for all >>>> its ports, for example) >>>> Some of it is a little cheeseball since I'm also trying to be witty and >>>> entertaining (we'll see how that goes). >>>> Please don't share them around until after my talk on the September 20th >>>> >>>> I'd like feedback on the bits I got wrong. Or left out. Or if you're in >>>> this and don't want to be, etc. >>>> >>>> All the slides after the Questions slide won't be presented and will >>>> likely be deleted. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/177KxOif5oHARyIdZHDq-OO67_GVtMkzIAlDX-cHxgb4/edit?usp=sharing >>>> >>>> Please be kind (but if it sucks, please do tell). I've turned on >>>> commenting on the slides. Probably best if you comment there. >>>> >>>> I have a video of me giving this talk, but it's too rough to share... >>>> >>>> Thanks for any help you can give me. >>>> >>>> Warner >>>> >>> --000000000000879d3a0592c495ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Another thought -- the first commercial= =C2=A0licensee was Rand.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hired=C2=A0some former Harvard student= s who brought UNIX with them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0You probably need to add things l= ike Rand Ports (a.k.a. named pipes) which came from there.=C2=A0 Also Chess= on and Co did the original ArpaNET NCP at University of Ill with=C2=A0some = help from the Rand folks.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That was done on a V6 system ~ 1978

When I worked at The Wollongong = Group they were quite specific that they had their license from V6 days, th= at it was a one-off that has unusually favorable terms, and that it was the= first licensee. But that may be the first license to redistribute, rather = than the first commercial user to be licensed...=C2=A0 I think for an expan= ded version of my talk, I'd include the other details, since there'= s both the NCP work and some TCP work with v7 in our archive these days. I&= #39;ll add a bullet point for these things. V6/V7 is the time that derivati= ves and add-ons really start to appear in relative abundance.
You also need nee= d=C2=A0Ken's famous V6 'patch' tape -- that 'leaked'=C2= =A0

I'll see if I can work = that in.. Is that the famous '50 patches' or is that something else= ?

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:02 PM = Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.= com> wrote:
BTW:=C2=A0 I just thought of something else....=C2= =A0 one of the b*tched about the commercial=C2=A0redistribution license fro= m V7 in 1979, that was not fixed until the SVR3 licensing the mid-late 1980= s=C2=A0 was AT&T's source policy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I said, a commerci= al=C2=A0source license was $20K for the first=C2=A0CPU and 5K for each addi= tional one.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Later (System V) it went to $50K for the first and = $10K for each additional.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But what really ticked off the=C2=A0v= endors like DEC, Masscomp, Sun et al, was that each system that sources on = was supposed to one of the 'second CPU licenses' - the binary=C2=A0= license was not good enough.=C2=A0=C2=A0

What most of = us did, was make sure any system that was a 'source control' or = 9;master' system at any 'site' had a full source license, but w= e were all in violation of the source agreement on our personal workstation= s.=C2=A0 The argument was the sources on people's machines was ephemera= l and not 'stored' there.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But it was definitely=C2=A0co= ntentious.

Y= ea, I think that all these details are (a) interesting but (b) not quite ri= ght for this talk...

Warner
=C2=A0
=
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 3:47 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
=
slide 4 --=C2=A0 All of HP-UX, Ultrix and Digital UNIX/Tru64 are BSD ker= nels.=C2=A0 HP-UP and Tru64 support System V calls.

BT= W:=C2=A0 DG-UX and Stratus built their own kernels, but used System V comma= nd systems and System Call definitions - which are not listed.

=
Slide 6 - if you=C2=A0want it I have another picture of the GE sys= tem from some of their literature has a view of all of the components.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Send me email if you want it.

Slide 8 - Sets= out to write version of Fortran came up with B.=C2=A0 Uses B to write Asse= mbler

Slide 9 - Wrong DEC logo.=C2=A0 Should be the Bl= ue one.=C2=A0 The maroon version does not show up until the 1990s with Bob = Palmer (and has bad memories for some of us).

Slide 1= 7 - Ken write PDP-11 assembler on PDP-7 in B. , Dennis starts to rewrite B = compiler to output PDP-11 code.

Slide 18 - B begins to= become different enough that Dennis starts to call it nb [new B], eventual= ly deviates enough to become new language

Slide 19 - 4= th Edition release outside of the BTL.=C2=A0 Lou Katz becomes=C2=A0'use= r zero'

Slide 20 -- We need to get you the site an= d group name from Mash.=C2=A0 It was not in Summit, it was not USG - but wa= s in NJ.=C2=A0 I thought it was Homdel but I that is purely speculation.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also t= he role of Columbus team needs to be defined.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ask Mary Ann.

Slide 21 -- I'm not going to argue - but I would ask = you to add a disclaimer.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is what you could reconstruct, bu= t there is some question of some of the arrows.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Heinz might be = able to help, but as Stienhart and I have said, its believed to be in LA; b= ut no one has tracked him down as he has been pursuing non-computer interes= ts.

Slide 22 --4th Edition went to Katz that this is w= rong, who sometimes reads this mailing list.=C2=A0 If not, send me a note, = I'll reintroduce you.=C2=A0 He might be able to give you a data.=C2=A0 = Check with Warren, my >>memory<< is that some of userland is st= ill in C although a lot assembler is still there.

Slid= e 23 -- ??widespread??=C2=A0 =C2=A0-- I'm not sure I would use that. No= t even 100 sites yet.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also there were not "commerci= al=C2=A0version" this was the first "commercial=C2=A0license"= ; -- big difference [contact me if you want explanation].=C2=A0 IIRC fee wa= s 15K per CPU.=C2=A0 Commercial redistribution doesn't occur until afte= r 7th is released and was a separate license.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would add, Mike= Lesk's portable C library is starting to be used, but most C program d= o their own I/O with read/write

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 First real install man page and Dennis build tape installatio= n system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Earlier version released as RK05 disk copies.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also numerous=C2=A0new peripheral= s. IIRC Support for the 11/40 starts here, 4th & 5th needed a 45 class,= and earlier used the 20 with the CSS MMU.

Slide 24 --= CMU uses it to teaches=C2=A0OS class.=C2=A0 makes student in class sign a = sub-license.

Slide 25 - missing the first=C2=A0USENIX = tapes. which include Harvard and the like.=C2=A0 Warren and I can probably = help a little here.

Slide 26 - new licenses.=C2=A0 Com= mercial=C2=A0license fees change to 20K for 1st CPU/5K for each CPU afterwa= rd.=C2=A0 CMU buys first commercial=C2=A0license to use UNIX to make money = [after Cole and Klein go on strike].=C2=A0 Case Western follows suit 6month= later.=C2=A0 =C2=A0AT&T agrees for the Universities=C2=A0that they onl= y had to declare one CPU as commercial and could intermix otherwise and not= ifies all the universities that if they were using it for commercial purpos= es, then needed a license.

AT&T creates first redi= stribution license.=C2=A0 Needed at least one $20K commercial=C2=A0CPU and = then $150k for the rights to redistribute.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Originally $1K per b= inary CPU.

Slide 27 -- missing Purdue Dual Vax and CMU Mach
=
Slide 28 - APS had NH which was the model the DEC plate you sh= ow.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maddog has it now on his Jeep when aps=C2=A0moved to CA (he= also has the NH Linux plate but I don't remember the car -- you can as= k him).=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have had the Massachusetts=C2=A0UNIX plate since 1983= (it's on my model S of course).=C2=A0 =C2=A0ghg has indiana from aroun= d the same time (I think on a pickup).=C2=A0 wnj had the CA vmunix on his F= errari, but I don't know if he still has it or what its on.=C2=A0
=

Slide 29 - Look in=C2=A0HenrySpencer-TUHS.org -- you'll= find tail but not head.

Slide 31 - Job Control can fr= om Europe via MIT.=C2=A0 Jim Kulp wrote it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Noel and I can give= you the story if you want it.=C2=A0 It was on the PDP-11 there.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Joy modified csh and added it to 4.1

Slide 32 -- JC= was not from UCB.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Joy got it from MIT=C2=A0 =C2=A0-- Dennis cr= eate ENV and it was first distributed in V7.

Slide 3= 3 -- No Bourne supported ENV in the new shell -- see me earlier email for h= ow all this went down or ask Steve yourself.

Slide 3= 4 -- PCC was included, but the Ritchie Compiler (a.k.a. Typesetter C) was t= he default compiler.=C2=A0 You are missing a step BTW -- typesetter C was r= eleased between V6 and V7.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As is the first draft=C2=A0of the Wh= ite Book.=C2=A0 The new compiler had stdio but targets V6.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Also mpx was part of DataKit support.

Slide 35 --= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not sure=C2=A0that is true.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I thought Microsoft= 9;s Xenix ships before Venix.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Particularly since you made the = comment about=C2=A0System III
The original 8086 Xenix was a pure V7= port, with a few additions Gordon brought with him from Purdue (i.e. ghg h= acks).

Slide 52/53/54/55 -- wrong logo (see above)






<= /div>




On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:21 P= M Warner Losh <imp@b= sdimp.com> wrote:
OK. I've shared my slides for the talk.
Some of the family trees are simplified (V7 doesn't hav= e room for all its ports, for example)
Some of it is a little che= eseball since I'm also trying to be witty and entertaining (we'll s= ee how that goes).
Please don't share them around until after m= y talk on the September 20th

I'd like fe= edback on the bits I got wrong. Or left out. Or if you're in this and d= on't want to be, etc.

All the slides after the= Questions slide won't be presented and will likely be deleted.


Please be kin= d (but if it sucks, please do tell). I've turned on commenting on the s= lides. Probably best if you comment there.

I have = a video of me giving this talk, but it's too rough to share...

Thanks for any help you can give me.

<= div>Warner
--000000000000879d3a0592c495ec--