From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22048 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 17:06:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 17:06:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EE242620; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 03:06:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f41.google.com (mail-ed1-f41.google.com [209.85.208.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 598EF42618 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 03:05:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f41.google.com with SMTP id m8so2393002edd.10 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3vBMoxOuDvP2hIhdm1MRjyxKxj5TgistqVZf7JNubLw=; b=d8IeoL1haQoA3zFZ1RC3tvykQt17WgHaWO0cO0DnmyKm1uaYEsIFMedXuze5YACVvP 11GcA7C65Dit1cZTM7gyKVe5oKuUGCLL1tCDHueBbZlVDpanaKyKUJUkToczJpvTYZN9 pkDSNt3dpo6H1RHf34PBo0LZ4BJ17V/p2Wa3Cu+1knC9snNOpG2jCvBp1DEnqO4yLCGi 1y4akRV4RrWTEpNg4fglLDaJ7E+5Y7VWHB+2rSmNZmMIGtxHJoGzv8aCwFsbc0i8GZxI 2wJUL6lfv815se2gG5a+tw3Eh4xcSRK28b02e908cZliW0tqLN+RV4Y3CYK24t39fGQY 2+2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3vBMoxOuDvP2hIhdm1MRjyxKxj5TgistqVZf7JNubLw=; b=NF31+A4LqaVnxfC6xWLPN7XrIZUFr8XaQWLC/INZFdB/oHBZ1QDkor3wloxKZooQGv ObJUxAwR90e3zbu0tazO0cLqKJgnbxNhG1Zogc0oIpYnOc6LaeaeDytRH9Rv73QH0Kdi 40Ab1owBUNviwuIMqJ4i24exG08alCgNR2cVQMRlxQBsA8XIAVfuAlkWn0L1b0ATXHgF CrnzZFKJxuWpVEPvftFPWGuNTA4deBIZMZiZr4o9fM1RbIoOdYSaRYBRYwa/HL0MKESr /FdwfuMv7029Q6sTp4LAe53C64tbI1n8c9FR1ZR2pI/iu5seeiqL9g0Wt+A0s5OqeMB5 FJJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXBnLzBBXIQRngHVUxd2f0IoyiMpesLOqwJUwW+EqqykcvMsF7m R3tx1WSUsfZS+tOobz3PAIXOtfsnlSs3gk51efeUjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+mVEQNbrYWamcc49pvakFncWsyVENw6LXDTv+lRfmQSC5jFi7dh87pk9RFjuHr+FRqcIRhuPYrA7KOB1bO6Fs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2884:b0:4a2:c40:58e4 with SMTP id eg4-20020a056402288400b004a20c4058e4mr2984614edb.7.1675098297685; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:04:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andy Kosela Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff6cff05f37e365c" Message-ID-Hash: JBP2LXRAR4UY4B6TCJLJH6OINAGV3W6K X-Message-ID-Hash: JBP2LXRAR4UY4B6TCJLJH6OINAGV3W6K X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ff6cff05f37e365c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 9:59 AM Andy Kosela wrote: > On Monday, January 30, 2023, Dan Cross wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >> > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix >> > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different >> > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models >> > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. >> > > >> > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread >> > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but >> > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. >> > >> > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old stuff. >> >> Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if >> we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? > > > I would argue that Linux actually did a lot of things differently. It > tried to conform to POSIX, but still there were a lof of fresh ideas that > actually took off. > Yes, but one legacy of that was Linux tried to use the System V ABI everywhere with extensions, and that means errno values are different in linux for different platforms, signals are a bit different etc. > It was not possible in the free BSD world which inherited much more from > the old Unix world. > It's been totally possible in the BSD world. The vm systems have been redone in ways that make the original look different, the tty layers are now completely different (something bde couldn't accomplish in the early days), the autoconf / device probing/attaching is different, the fact that removable devices extend well beyond disk packs, SMP support (several different flavors), bus independent dma and device register access, etc. Now granted, in the earliest of days some things seemed too sacrosanct, but all the BSDs quickly learned being too rigid didn't generally have good outcomes (though some corners of the systems have taken longer than others to realize that). Warner --000000000000ff6cff05f37e365c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 9:59 AM Andy = Kosela <akosela@andykosela.com= > wrote:
= On Monday, January 30, 2023, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McV= oy <lm@mcvoy.com&g= t; wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with = Unix
> > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a dif= ferent
> > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing menta= l models
> > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.
> >
> > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a wid= espread
> > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9.
>
> Many people make that mistake.=C2=A0 New stuff instead of extend old s= tuff.

Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if
we're just incrementally polishing what's come before?
=

I would argue that Linux actually did a lot of things d= ifferently. It tried to conform to POSIX, but still there were a lof of fre= sh ideas that actually took off.

Yes,= but one legacy of that was Linux tried to use the System V ABI everywhere = with extensions, and that means errno values are different in linux for dif= ferent platforms, signals are a bit different etc.
=C2=A0
It was not possible in= the free BSD world which inherited much more from the old Unix world.

It's been totally possible in the BSD= world. The vm systems have been redone in ways that make the original look= different, the tty layers are now completely different (something bde coul= dn't accomplish in the early days), the autoconf / device probing/attac= hing is different, the fact that removable devices extend well beyond disk = packs, SMP support (several different flavors), bus independent dma and dev= ice register access, etc.

Now granted, in the earl= iest of days some things seemed too sacrosanct, but all the BSDs quickly le= arned being too rigid didn't generally have good outcomes (though some = corners of the systems have taken longer than others to realize that).

Warner
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