From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AFA269E9 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 15:54:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F6143DE2; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 23:54:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B53A43DE1 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 23:54:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1fa9ecfb321so11741915ad.0 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 06:54:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1719496477; x=1720101277; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5Uf9qOgzm2BM6M5pt8P2QJL6YkZXxWeJ+6AoNeI/+x4=; b=XIci48ZHKZZSiQ0hTyUXi6BBRNt5nSDk4cZCOs0lMyCrChWOkUvY09PI9wuIh4aE95 SJzxFWp3Je0p8KORU66htHlQVHC1SA65bdSWElpnhjTEbFVcSBFD5lazIPB5vva7xA8n wNLoke5+nG9ioDCONlHjEQiXEs854ToR+HmTPx77/NKl7/NsQUaT0qCOtBCAnh3YRMlZ rqrZGRFNgv+ReceZZjnnq/5idiYGmw5L+Asv75Hens72EZRgcnQNvrDWGISMtQQ9a0y9 QvYOpXzlzMS5OL619wljteWVbbUogyzMWHvG+Qwd8MB91D3wNqg8/5KKSqeyo6zZLRj/ bwqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1719496477; x=1720101277; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=5Uf9qOgzm2BM6M5pt8P2QJL6YkZXxWeJ+6AoNeI/+x4=; b=fE2i5+IoDjO79Tdo9tUubpSftrVo2eXsq7/8hZkGHkaj8Z76+nPla/Js2d4PJFm/VP +uIchu7E4gOVaMm+IhrnHwROtJ3hMao4ed/W1FRAnrkEZbO4PIlKJDBQ22+TBLuZcgb+ L69TETv9Dv5qe9uOQOCXW8J03DFL/sTR3axI1oeaWrVdTosFxvWFqXtRllcPKrD+aXcJ TQnLMQ8aVbtJKifhA2f3sRu58JPtE6hdM+REr4M7qwNplnzgvBxN9jEIiEknMem+u7UQ Pb9Wove/kwbZ7EbJ2b2oSwoUhyIceULeq+nzNCXDA1A9RZf0VUL3uMyZ4gCc7S5wuWS4 a7lw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU1Wxb+p5ZIeWsiSo4YlSniNH2p6gGHUY15ofiu7jOxNhZ7AV2LE+27TiOKJA7699eBthdFgfJygiYAmCOL X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyTJ1vbFMs+XC0ouWZdKq0QBEI2AVrw58JpAIuZbLu4aQYysCHf 6twW4JHcJ6vUPQp0y2hrQykJeWbyQthHjzCDcOOqz6Wnse+iWZ6ymonxl37wcvmEMTWw9aD3kWH vQMDFS3uaMs3Y3YISajHkHFBTkyYsISrmK7JNWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGuMKc3IL3EylDnAfkKSuyhu949Kn7F1zVbigXLGOHIuquvSRXrvzThWQrdD4nt2rYTPDr/w1TO0h30VmiNbzQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:34cb:b0:2bf:c6fb:ec34 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c85819f561mr11775639a91.8.1719496477247; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 06:54:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55B612BA-0805-4357-8736-8CEED8F3791A@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:54:25 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b828f8061bdf78f6" Message-ID-Hash: YMGTGUZGN76IQROIFVVWRIOORUQNBPBZ X-Message-ID-Hash: YMGTGUZGN76IQROIFVVWRIOORUQNBPBZ X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Peter Yardley , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: another OSX 100% less Unix List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000b828f8061bdf78f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, 6:07=E2=80=AFAM Dan Cross wrote: > On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:02=E2=80=AFAM Peter Yardley > wrote: > > OSX is Mach which has a BSD emulation layer. And BSD injected into the > kernel. > > > > It doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be UNIX. > > Not true! It does: macOS is actually certified and registered as Unix. > It's my understanding that Apple paid a fair bit of money to make that > happen: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ Indeed (can't authoritatively speak to the cost). FreeBSD has started getting a trickle of fixes to cope with the test suite compliance. Some are very test suite specific like checking to make sure argv[0] !=3D NULL in so= me weird programs... some fix real problems though.. Warner > - Dan C. > > > > > On 27 Jun 2024, at 1:29=E2=80=AFPM, ron minnich = wrote: > > > > > > I have a directory, t: > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ ls -li > > > total 0 > > > 23801442 -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > > 23801443 -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 b > > > 23801443 -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 c > > > > > > note that b and c are the same inode. > > > > > > let's make a cpio. > > > > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -o >../t.cpio > > > a > > > b > > > c > > > ^D > > > 1 block > > > > > > what's in it? > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -ivt < ../t.cpio > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 b > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b > > > > > > "c link to b"? wtf? Who thought that was a good idea? because ... > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ touch 'c link to b' > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ ls -l > > > total 0 > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 b > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 c > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:22 c link to b > > > > > > and > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -o >../t.cpio > > > a > > > b > > > c > > > c link to b > > > ^D > > > > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -ivt < ../t.cpio > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 b > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:22 c link to b > > > > > > so ... it looks like a file is there twice, because somebody thought > it was a good idea to confuse a file name and file metadata. And, anyway, > it's just as accurate to have it say > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 b link to c > > > -rw-r--r-- 2 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 rminnich wheel 0 Jun 26 20:22 c link to b > > > Right? :-) > > > > > > From the same people who brought you this: > > > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ bc > > > >>> > > > > > > Somebody needs to get the osx folks a unix manual set :-) > > > > Peter Yardley > > peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com > > > --000000000000b828f8061bdf78f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, 6:07=E2=80=AFAM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:02=E2=80=AFAM Pete= r Yardley
<peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote:
> OSX is Mach which has a BSD emulation layer. And BSD injected into the= kernel.
>
> It doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be UNIX.

Not true! It does: macOS is actually certified and registered as Unix.
It's my understanding that Apple paid a fair bit of money to make that<= br> happen: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/= register/

Indeed (can't authoritatively speak to the cost). FreeBSD has= started getting a trickle of fixes to cope with the test suite compliance.= Some are very test suite specific like checking to make sure argv[0] !=3D = NULL in some weird programs... some fix real problems though..

Warner


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.


> > On 27 Jun 2024, at 1:29=E2=80=AFPM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have a directory, t:
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ ls -li
> > total 0
> > 23801442 -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 2= 0:21 a
> > 23801443 -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 2 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 2= 0:21 b
> > 23801443 -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 2 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 2= 0:21 c
> >
> > note that b and c are the same inode.
> >
> > let's make a cpio.
> >
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -o >../t.cpio
> > a
> > b
> > c
> > ^D
> > 1 block
> >
> > what's in it?
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -ivt < ../t.cpio
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A01 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 a
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 b
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b
> >
> > "c link to b"? wtf? Who thought that was a good idea? b= ecause ...
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ touch 'c link to b'
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ ls -l
> > total 0
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 20:21 a > > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 2 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 20:21 b > > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 2 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 20:21 c > > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 rminnich=C2=A0 wheel=C2=A0 0 Jun 26 20:22 c li= nk to b
> >
> > and
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -o >../t.cpio
> > a
> > b
> > c
> > c link to b
> > ^D
> >
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ cpio -ivt < ../t.cpio
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A01 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 a
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 b
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A01 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:22 c link to b
> >
> > so ... it looks like a file is there twice, because somebody thou= ght it was a good idea to confuse a file name and file metadata. And, anywa= y, it's just as accurate to have it say
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A01 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 a
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 b link to c
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A02 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:21 c link to b
> > -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 =C2=A01 rminnich wheel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 Jun 26 20:22 c link to b
> > Right? :-)
> >
> > From the same people who brought you this:
> > ronsexcllentmbp:t rminnich$ bc
> > >>>
> >
> > Somebody needs to get the osx folks a unix manual set :-)
>
> Peter Yardley
> peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com
>
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