From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29602 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2022 17:52:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Jul 2022 17:52:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312A0406F2; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 03:52:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f53.google.com (mail-vs1-f53.google.com [209.85.217.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26C42406E6 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 03:52:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f53.google.com with SMTP id a184so4904775vsa.1 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RnJ9r+erxxjvz3EwVZvHS4mfIf5KINEHLPcIfYFLJro=; b=k43w+rNdeUColnWRjFgk1mmdRbpdZ//Z9SvIhFYdRn1UiYaSDYlhET6KmoX/k6UXZF 4tGxOyC0UK/YxC+RxGkrELb6Ys+Gjusc9g0HoO+0uNatUgtzszvOBeGwYQOX6olf2nJX x9BIgMLYWH+r525S4gHT5E2cZ39gcJ6LhM2VUDHoCuN+ggsxfllmR8i9PBggrAqcfyBv ecIadO+ZZirYRGMondo5TvMEbK0KnT6UebzkKpPktWnXHnGB2objyr1pxLhxRe7Xt91k +FhRRvuQk8ZXL0RtDDUmSez11APTeUwihN5AxoSA258UpbE3yLW74OkhNT3FgI4abkTU 50Pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RnJ9r+erxxjvz3EwVZvHS4mfIf5KINEHLPcIfYFLJro=; b=zDtrTeJvKqkTO2xhq65bnJvypGvHoB+85EhY5O+IqxHpTqmE5QUSUVYZnFmBsIZK/M PGhLVE936KPdGkVswCBquHZ+BjoTCStHxDHnQR0Hon9qHkDpR55S6hb3LvZGgtfNvk4J pzj4xOeYHec6Z44ineww1WYWfWEY10lv9qwxvGfdb+Im4ugghzu71Od77s3jP6kNWgCf A0rRrHspIc3iI8HNr2+J33n/NJKWhPJCnG1Nlqrgamjr73E/KcJILxMJHoHoS7IHgeZ8 /p+ipui4cQ024Qv8RiSMkyIPao77tQuiEuoiueX3vuseW1DkHUBczHyyawUWwfleapPQ ZFbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9uwmSV+OQ6v35lA2YvBOuK+A+SDwsApuon4I2sDj7zglgyDd+m J49ZCCvv0/+9RbhWTJax3vwWAfcp5EkzDGRy9lbIftU/emA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uPa/9mLwoPDRAsmcp6TGQATN1J5SwWYjqhaDHTSGyoUZG0ijAfWF5E/ypWUOi+T0csKrt7PKVnF3S3oYxoEOc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fbc6:0:b0:357:8a5e:93bb with SMTP id o6-20020a67fbc6000000b003578a5e93bbmr6114986vsr.40.1657907462741; Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:51:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2hK72A6Itq5yUS4eqzueKuU8hSC1JCR3XQbiHWTXnp-VS1V-eItyJ1gscCj2QR-0knXF7ukWVBxxzrC6e4TaN86l_2WAYK1eGrae2cskPb4=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2hK72A6Itq5yUS4eqzueKuU8hSC1JCR3XQbiHWTXnp-VS1V-eItyJ1gscCj2QR-0knXF7ukWVBxxzrC6e4TaN86l_2WAYK1eGrae2cskPb4=@protonmail.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:50:51 -0600 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006331b605e3dba99d" Message-ID-Hash: JFGH3NEQQBXI7S556LVL52NJOYVUOCHN X-Message-ID-Hash: JFGH3NEQQBXI7S556LVL52NJOYVUOCHN X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: V8 4BSD or 32V Based? (was: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000006331b605e3dba99d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 11:15 AM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > Re-subject'd as this part of the conversation diverges. > > Found the quote that I was thinking of when I said that: > > https://yarchive.net/comp/bsd.html > > "Research Unix 8th Edition started from (I think) BSD 4.1c, but with > enormous amounts scooped out and replaced by our own stuff." - Dennis > Ritchie > > The "I think" adds some murkiness for sure. There's definitely a good > chunk of code from 4BSD. Compare init, getty, locore.c (as opposed to .s > in V7 back). Heck, even the main.c between the two kernels are more > similar to each other than V7. I would almost opt towards calling that > being rebased on 4BSD rather than V7 with bits and pieces of BSD added. I > could see it being more beneficial to start with 4BSD and tack on necessary > Bell bits rather than take V7/32V and try and shoehorn in the VM > implementation for VAX. > > The 4.1cBSD copy on the archive does appear to be pretty different, so in > terms of raw comparison, I suspect the basis is 4BSD rather than 4.1cBSD. > I don't know that we have a clean copy of 4.1BSD gold, I'd be interested to > see if the structure of the source code changed between 4.1 and 4.1c, as > 4.1c does exhibit the new organization by the BSD folks, 4BSD still shows > folders like cmd, lib, and so on. > > Not trying to be combative by any means, but I've been doing a bit of > research lately into when V8 was snapped from BSD and where Bell and > Berkeley then diverged from that last major confluence, especially with a > focus on init and other early stages of userland. > The biggest differences between BSD4.1 and BSD4.1c were the addition of FFS in 4.1b (we have 4.1a from Kirk's DVD, as well as 4.1 and two versions of 4.1c). There's no ufs that I can detect in V8 though. If we look at the vm, the 4.1c.2 files are from 83, the 4.1 files are from 80 and the v8 files are from 81. Kirk's DVD has a 4.1.snap on it that lines up more closely with at least the vm files. I don't recall what these files are from. It's not present in the TUHS archives that I see. This snapshot is about a year after 4.1BSD release, but maybe 18 months before the 4.1a snapshot. Warner --0000000000006331b605e3dba99d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 11:15 AM sega= loco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wr= ote:
Re-subject&= #39;d as this part of the conversation diverges.

Found the quote that I was thinking of when I said that:

https://yarchive.net/comp/bsd.html

"Research Unix 8th Edition started from (I think) BSD 4.1c, but with e= normous amounts scooped out and replaced by our own stuff." - Dennis R= itchie

The "I think" adds some murkiness for sure.=C2=A0 There's def= initely a good chunk of code from 4BSD.=C2=A0 Compare init, getty, locore.c= (as opposed to .s in V7 back).=C2=A0 Heck, even the main.c between the two= kernels are more similar to each other than V7.=C2=A0 I would almost opt t= owards calling that being rebased on 4BSD rather than V7 with bits and piec= es of BSD added.=C2=A0 I could see it being more beneficial to start with 4= BSD and tack on necessary Bell bits rather than take V7/32V and try and sho= ehorn in the VM implementation for VAX.

The 4.1cBSD copy on the archive does appear to be pretty different, so in t= erms of raw comparison, I suspect the basis is 4BSD rather than 4.1cBSD.=C2= =A0 I don't know that we have a clean copy of 4.1BSD gold, I'd be i= nterested to see if the structure of the source code changed between 4.1 an= d 4.1c, as 4.1c does exhibit the new organization by the BSD folks, 4BSD st= ill shows folders like cmd, lib, and so on.

Not trying to be combative by any means, but I've been doing a bit of r= esearch lately into when V8 was snapped from BSD and where Bell and Berkele= y then diverged from that last major confluence, especially with a focus on= init and other early stages of userland.

The biggest differences between BSD4.1 and BSD4.1c were the addition of = FFS in 4.1b (we have 4.1a from Kirk's DVD, as well as 4.1 and two versi= ons of 4.1c). There's no ufs that I can detect in V8 though.
=
If we look at the vm, the 4.1c.2 files are from 83, the 4.1 = files are from 80 and the v8 files are from 81.

Ki= rk's DVD has a 4.1.snap on it that lines up more closely with at least = the vm files. I don't recall what these files are from. It's not pr= esent in the TUHS archives that I see. This snapshot is about a year after = 4.1BSD release, but maybe 18 months before the 4.1a snapshot.
Warner
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