From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7659 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2022 02:04:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2022 02:04:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D42B421C7; Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:04:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com (mail-vs1-f46.google.com [209.85.217.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B200140F70 for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:04:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id z66so5886115vsb.3 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2022 19:04:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+R+FbEuGfCBndRlQP4HtWg/JTWQi5Ulb2ZFfxJDQTz0=; b=ifADNR9g+/FP8U60DbNxpwmSm0kSo+3IapoJWx2Ty9jLGTYj+o22IgBIb7RdoLBfRK tbdfj4vJFOZbculCodFs/TJ/MQjHK8qEcIO8etYgcoZJbiHcNM5HtfBFaEIQ7tp766kD O1SDPYTQLhkWicdZWfcHLBPlARqt0lb+plvXPA0u1iypqSQxlktSpv3aIwBGkIPMlNCH zxmGU0JAf/L7aOwnDbYOHjJLImI9p7PghWLp9SD5MNUERWh9VlvkoriZQO3LAIWwvoLX 4YWrgEo1HHKmqloIJtgTUjDwxlqrfRapBemu8ZaT6vqguU9029W4XL+aYGGTvhZ4cOYr oO/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+R+FbEuGfCBndRlQP4HtWg/JTWQi5Ulb2ZFfxJDQTz0=; b=mcGWRwB0A4fYULC4j/6XmhTLxKpv/NHkgKRLM2rB5X5lmhcytFzNlkYYAq8gsEMn0/ yrH3TDap/E7TaMT5XazSyp9lKd4rD4EqYldTPrd+nYXjycOe+QZqwXwtHY1N21a6suNh 19SkfByhmDGBCe7N9NxTycdbbJPTniq5JFvByVHetQ+ADps9qAIu/m0NZdJk1obUydAP 8S5EnXfavJ83eztE0xWySWgPBwDZZjVaIIDKoveonyVmX7rr0D24BqejLxbNRkSw7pHO 2Y8HFYGkidYQx16SJ1JvNEKR/slLDuT2e/k+lMvfnJnCa3BmE7gSB/T9m6lyf/ZxYrr/ Hjmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9yhs0XBMp2k11XN6KXcfwcbZcdNcON99m/4qRJJQK0rN74NU13 Qsw5/IFsKeBIXJZeQx42YaHQAb7+awyPvYqnrFUsWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1unQg5rOjGFMVHrvynrE5MbXHz68TFLeRYgBUZAdj7PurlFEt5pWrrX/umuR8PtZdHuRNMKlQ7XuwQreksjufc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ef84:0:b0:354:3ae9:e6f7 with SMTP id r4-20020a67ef84000000b003543ae9e6f7mr13777130vsp.41.1656813802625; Sat, 02 Jul 2022 19:03:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220702210244.GU11191@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:03:12 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a338005e2dd061f" Message-ID-Hash: BGELTBOSC73I3JNRSQ2YNRAJY77J5XDR X-Message-ID-Hash: BGELTBOSC73I3JNRSQ2YNRAJY77J5XDR X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Marc Donner , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000002a338005e2dd061f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is prescriptive about where the bom and such resides. But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENIX tapes and other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data still extant from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly crafted. Some items have good and clear title, but many do not. Unix itself has an unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses were granted, especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of which conflict in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the business of judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we can distribute this" So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extensions makes me nervous. Warner On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Agreed > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would make me >> find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in. >> >> But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left. >> >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> > Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and >> > metadata..... there already is a standard for this. >> > >> > Warner >> > >> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner wrote: >> > >> > > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... the licensing >> stuff >> > > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but not >> directly >> > > relevant to any of its actual content or function. >> > > ===== >> > > nygeek.net >> > > mindthegapdialogs.com/home >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole wrote: >> > > >> > >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some licensing >> > >> discussions. Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno notes - they >> are >> > >> relevant. >> > >> >> > >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the case of the >> Unix >> > >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level >> directory. Add >> > >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or >> 'Copyrights+Licenses'. >> > >> Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current note into that >> area. >> > >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross's >> V8-10, >> > >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX world - >> such as >> > >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added. Maybe add a >> > >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details. And maybe add a >> > >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX community >> and add a >> > >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs. >> > >> >> > >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir. Adding to the >> > >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this website is >> covered by >> > >> different licenses depending on the specific IP. Copies of these >> can be >> > >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all collected >> > >> together in the top-level directory: ...*." >> > >> >> > >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as practical >> > >> values. As I said, I was not sure myself and I think other would be >> less >> > >> ignorant if they could find it all easily. In the case of the >> practical, >> > >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I had >> pointed them >> > >> at the Caldera document. I'ld have loved to have been able to say >> look in >> > >> this directory. The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses are what we are >> > >> considering as examples. >> > >> >> > >> Thoughts? >> > >> >> > > >> >> -- >> --- >> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat >> > -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > --0000000000002a338005e2dd061f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With spdx it would go in neither place.. spdx is prescrip= tive about where the bom and such resides.

But one of the big issues with thus stuff is things like USENI= X tapes and other similar artifacts that have unclear or no license data st= ill extant from the time, if there ever was. Or licenses that are poorly cr= afted. Some items have good and clear title, but many do not.=C2=A0 Unix it= self has an unclear chain of ownership at the time the ancient licenses wer= e granted, especially in light of rulings in some court cases (some of whic= h conflict in their finer points). We likely do not want to be in the busin= ess of judging things beyond "we have a good faith basis to think we c= an distribute this"

So anything that goes beyond the simple spdx stuff, with our own extension= s makes me nervous.=C2=A0

Warner

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 5:54 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Agreed=C2=A0

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:03 P= M Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
If I were looking for licenses "Copyrights+Licenses" would m= ake me
find, "metadata" I wouldn't think to look in.

But I'm an old retired dude without many brain cells left.

On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 02:57:31PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> Before we go inventing our own thing, let's just add spdx tags and=
> metadata..... there already is a standard for this.
>
> Warner
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 1:09 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>
> > I would call that top level directory "metadata" ... th= e licensing stuff
> > is quite relevant to the owner and operator of the system, but no= t directly
> > relevant to any of its actual content or function.
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
nygeek.net
> > mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 2:17 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wro= te:
> >
> >> As part of some of simh work, I've been immersed in some = licensing
> >> discussions.=C2=A0 Thanks for the V8-10, Plan-9 and Inferno n= otes - they are
> >> relevant.
> >>
> >> Anyway, WRT to TUHS, I'm thinking that at least in the ca= se of the Unix
> >> style bits, I propose a small change to Waren's top-level= directory.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Add
> >> a new dir called something like 'Legal Docs' or '= Copyrights+Licenses'.
> >>=C2=A0 Then move the Caldera document and Warren's current= note into that area.
> >> Then add copies of anything we can collect like the Dan Cross= 's V8-10,
> >> anything WRT to Plan9/Inferno or anything we from the UNIX wo= rld - such as
> >> something Sun, DEC or HP or like might have added.=C2=A0 Mayb= e add a
> >> subdirectory with the AT&T/USL case details.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= And maybe add a
> >> sub-directory with known FOSS licenses used by the UNIX commu= nity and add a
> >> copy of the 3-clause BSD and maybe even the two GPLs.
> >>
> >> Then update the README in the current top-level dir.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Adding to the
> >> contents something like "*the IP contained on this websi= te is covered by
> >> different licenses depending on the specific IP.=C2=A0 Copies= of these can be
> >> found with the source code itself, but have also been all col= lected
> >> together in the top-level directory: ...*."
> >>
> >> I think these all have both historical values, as well as pra= ctical
> >> values.=C2=A0 As I said, I was not sure myself and I think ot= her would be less
> >> ignorant if they could find it all easily.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the= case of the practical,
> >> a for instance, in an email with some lawyers last week, I ha= d pointed them
> >> at the Caldera document.=C2=A0 I'ld have loved to have be= en able to say look in
> >> this directory.=C2=A0 The Caldera and later Nokia Licenses ar= e what we are
> >> considering as examples.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com/lm= /boat
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
--0000000000002a338005e2dd061f--