From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id daabb915 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 15:07:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6709EA1848; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 01:07:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C71CA1816; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 01:07:32 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=HaVZVMSv; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1B481A1816; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 01:07:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io0-f178.google.com (mail-io0-f178.google.com [209.85.223.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76D509EDF1 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 01:07:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io0-f178.google.com with SMTP id k16-v6so5547147ioa.8 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:07:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=bgXPvp3Yl9SU+KKn7b2FI/B7t8ZY/TH5FSUrhFoOKS0=; b=HaVZVMSvqE9O3v0dmLG6Xh4aevyQKKZRjJ1dVkj86n7eN8x+gJOVgDjZMGGBl+BQCz /tZnvHVyMkYBiWqjEkAPZf5JrRXM6a43hLa6pSuaH1BkH/HE5E2gNKoLlcPGbWKomXI+ ihbCEaf7Mt1CGp8BR1Ewk4X3cIMuU0WivsaCm1fXoVPFgP7OkiOYu4PZbYNhyRBDpmr9 MBWlCMgZ4Cs4R7un+Ia4E6K5uSb1x0d9OEGVZgfytPkFlp8hpLGzWzCxzPmCe3/npwI/ bDqfWl1SAviSQH3c7rtAJKeoMQ9PQ1Rqg+TwzTrfOSGVrIVP0s1xm0xKMjYttiHc8Fyl WR2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bgXPvp3Yl9SU+KKn7b2FI/B7t8ZY/TH5FSUrhFoOKS0=; b=TXM8OJ6f6Su1i5YDL1ouPaN/H89x55ya7SEoM0tmrPbcH9gvsoaAtoacJ0o7S0NDq9 dlJCpm5sdamcM64XtlMz7mKErI20KBV7xTbvfQVSO376aIN2VEgy1/8YsFqneIWapVT3 u1wtxzOpUt0V7QmkediNzs7BUyqX7zswuQpXqO+V0L29o1IFX4YyQckNvOlOr+HL8/fX q7nEvAtk9eL1Vn7lf6EdP+cPfcSvUM0OcXIcZa6Ck9/8VTPHUBJiUN49XodlWKL+KalH j4x8sNfe4SHSFXYa1fxhEjPaRHzwLsR+NkRQMbrwVhtYuIGptNsZNwy1OezprROX2lDd kHKA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2zpFSTsAaeQyBWsrfDkGDH++Al47ERMbwD9UGu8EWJXlBXPtbu tsMzYtBrPzx0KrbZflCEvxQluwuB8rZcfnL9CxJs6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfVGN5cMssLmirp/t4zg3TDE7PCiKsBBmZbTTS226Tf2tnVzoPrhB8Jd2gct0XtI7xwZW4Nf6LackZWJw+y/iA= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d40c:: with SMTP id l12-v6mr9098771iog.37.1530198448730; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:07:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:5945:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <20180628145609.GD21688@mcvoy.com> References: <81277CC3-3C4A-49B8-8720-CFAD22BB28F8@bitblocks.com> <20180628141538.GB663@thunk.org> <20180628104329.754d2c19@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <20180628145609.GD21688@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:07:28 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: YJKpNrWbCyhRUxeq569eEkm9HfY Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f90f4d056fb5161f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] PDP-11 legacy, C, and modern architectures X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f90f4d056fb5161f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 10:43:29AM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 10:15:38 -0400 "Theodore Y. Ts'o" > > wrote: > > > I'll note that Sun made a big bet (one of its last failed bets) on > > > this architecture in the form of the Niagra architecture, with a > > > large number of super "wimpy" cores. It was the same basic idea > > > --- we can't make big fast cores (since that would lead to high > > > ILP's, complex register rewriting, and lead to cache-oriented > > > security vulnerabilities like Spectre and Meltdown) --- so instead, > > > let's make lots of tiny wimpy cores, and let programmers write > > > highly threaded programs! They essentially made a bet on the > > > web-based microservice model which you are promoting. > > > > > > And the Market spoke. And shortly thereafter, Java fell under the > > > control of Oracle.... And Intel would proceed to further dominate > > > the landscape. > > > > I'll be contrary for a moment. > > > > Huge numbers of wimpy cores is the model already dominating the > > world. > > Got a source that backs up that claim? I was recently dancing with > Netflix and they don't match your claim, nor do the other content > delivery networks, they want every cycle they can get. > Well, we want to be able to manage 100G or more of encrypted traffic sanely. We currently get this by lots (well 20) of not-so-wimpy cores to do all the work since none of the offload solutions can scale. The problem is that there's no systems with lots (100's) of wimpy cores that we can do the offload with that also have enough bandwidth to keep up. And even if there were, things like NUMA and slow interprocessor connects make the usefulness of the boatloads of cores a lot trickier to utilize than it should.... Then again, a lot of what we do is rather special case, even if we do use off the shelf technology to get there... Warner --000000000000f90f4d056fb5161f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> w= rote:
On Thu, Jun 28, 20= 18 at 10:43:29AM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 10:15:38 -0400 "Theodore Y. Ts'o" &l= t;tytso@mit.edu>
> wrote:
> > I'll note that Sun made a big bet (one of its last failed bet= s) on
> > this architecture in the form of the Niagra architecture, with a<= br> > > large number of super "wimpy" cores.=C2=A0 It was the s= ame basic idea
> > --- we can't make big fast cores (since that would lead to hi= gh
> > ILP's, complex register rewriting, and lead to cache-oriented=
> > security vulnerabilities like Spectre and Meltdown) --- so instea= d,
> > let's make lots of tiny wimpy cores, and let programmers writ= e
> > highly threaded programs!=C2=A0 They essentially made a bet on th= e
> > web-based microservice model which you are promoting.
> >
> > And the Market spoke.=C2=A0 And shortly thereafter, Java fell und= er the
> > control of Oracle....=C2=A0 And Intel would proceed to further do= minate
> > the landscape.
>
> I'll be contrary for a moment.
>
> Huge numbers of wimpy cores is the model already dominating the
> world.

Got a source that backs up that claim?=C2=A0 I was recently dancing = with
Netflix and they don't match your claim, nor do the other content
delivery networks, they want every cycle they can get.

Well, we want to be= able to manage 100G or more of encrypted traffic sanely.

We currently get this= by lots (well 20) of not-so-wimpy cores to do all the work since none of t= he offload solutions can scale.

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">The problem is that there's no systems with l= ots (100's) of wimpy cores that we can do the offload with that also ha= ve enough bandwidth to keep up. And even if there were, things like NUMA an= d slow interprocessor connects make the usefulness of the boatloads of core= s a lot trickier to utilize than it should....

Then again, a lot of what we do is= rather special case, even if we do use off the shelf technology to get the= re...

= Warner
--000000000000f90f4d056fb5161f--