From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198D4270CC for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 20:41:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94BF4331E; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 04:41:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-x531.google.com (mail-pg1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::531]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DE4043317 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 04:41:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-6c821775f82so104792a12.0 for ; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 11:41:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1717612888; x=1718217688; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iJ2U8z6BOVlRFmnPL4l9d3qLklxiNd5j5i8/h7Zhr+c=; b=VvACTWTqIbT4O5SC1NEnWAOWcKDaHybW4lOTVlhmitocx0SiNmiHdHkIndnmyD1spn 4SgktIRH9dr5vcUjzwPgCAti87BeDtYYmDxOUipJ1wHGjtbw6kWf1lSSex7wX4djLUh7 kBZrPzALB6/ZrFtZezCzf1uULZVkl7QpHn+wY0oNAXW4nGwfhyYZPNpy2RgVTOFivrcl tO0SuErMIaaUP13h0ZuFx3z4zsZc/UbnjEtrlu1wgouoeO9204ihLkShMh5ZrhQl1HEO Xfu1uqsac7KYeeiN1pVsYCetY4SYh2gkgiIIpoSEbXokUhT+48aXqBMPuX0l/FgdFU3S NenA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717612888; x=1718217688; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=iJ2U8z6BOVlRFmnPL4l9d3qLklxiNd5j5i8/h7Zhr+c=; b=ax49kqWdzLrPFvr/PJMp4qKO5T99Xv4jn1H65HOHPVhDuII8LjDz2tNFx28a78wFm7 93//93uEb71YrNsWR7WH/AqVelMyrA24EgjZF2iKKfqhoqqVT0qX0STLn/CEjCaOo9JZ jQuedQApbhDE0urLQii4oNvrbnLvVcdABxgR7EiMboMzhjSqTqvW1N6SQdizppvJtEvw UaQdKdoOEM7eD1eQITGIZZZCuCrz2Y8IVC8t+K9AHjeobU8MhP7CFGHWpnqGfQF26sEY G4Fm39uFcdLnRUiOCm++J6s0ARdgl2bv4adSBtuARSTYyOf+HJVHjZ+zzmlMGfJH5pdS b1Rw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWcyKtoxe2cMddearsNILKpWw4J6EiRnqnq95IsIhm2OSdAWvbUCtAzPb1hbrKSC311g4kYzsIaXmO83E2X X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCkzPuQ3bti/obTw7FYWWRt8d/I+m1KVqkoic4Gz7qBZbgAK5N FI+unxmuAagm8S8d0iWnrbc/vbMuUd9+vZXwAqGnmKv5y5gjOnm4+B6LQTGQfjjhxcB0zkhfqfw jCtH2PhvNADfbTvJWPmhMQaeBqSx/iYemdBfz3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGk7EPW55DxVF2uhoZQY/TlzNE2DH+q/TVhVsb4qMBjew4g/6ih/aLiaE5pkMtE14+kc9tADv71/KmB3VHTFIE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:46ca:b0:2b1:817d:982b with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c27db11630mr3485182a91.14.1717612888231; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 11:41:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 11:41:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Joshua Rollin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010ac6d061a28ea4b" Message-ID-Hash: TTJSW4XIJEVOOECCP33AZA7DKFAS3PDG X-Message-ID-Hash: TTJSW4XIJEVOOECCP33AZA7DKFAS3PDG X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Will Senn , segaloco , Andrew Lynch , TUHS Main List X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: most direct Unix descendant List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000010ac6d061a28ea4b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 11:23=E2=80=AFAM Jeffrey Joshua Rollin < jefftwopointzero@gmail.com> wrote: > Following this line of thought, - and with the disclaimer that my own > personal existence begins roughly where what has been called =E2=80=9CThe= Last True > UNIX=E2=80=9D [Seventh Edition] ends, I=E2=80=99d say that, if ESR - who = I know can be > controversial - is correct, =E2=80=9CBSD won in the marketplace, but Syst= em V won > the standards wars=E2=80=9D or words to that effect. > > With that in mind, and given that NetBSD was forked from 386BSD and in > turn gave rise to the other BSDs around today, That is not true. FreeBSD imported the 386BSD plus patchkit patches into its CVS tree. It did not inport NetBSD's source, though NetBSD did import the same sources into their CVS repo days (or maybe weeks) earlier. Much of this early history, though, is not widely available as the early NetBSD and FreeBSD CVS repos are not available in their original form due to the AT&T lawsuit. And then the redo of these groups of the 4.4BSD import, the 4.4BSD-lite and lite 2 rebased both projects further muddy the waters since they now were both based on approximately the same pure from CSRG sources, rendering the earlier messiness perhaps moot. Or perhaps not, but not a point that has universal agreement, even among those involved in doing the work. It also gets muddy because of the original patchkit authors also spintered to for both NetBSD and FreeBSD in a way that's most kindly described as messy, so much spin was broadcast to characterize who was first or best. The truth is that the split was messy and definitive statements around this are troublesome at best. Warner it would be my candidate for =E2=80=9Cmost direct descendant available toda= y,=E2=80=9D > particularly if we=E2=80=99re talking wide availability. (Whilst V1-6 and= beyond > were of course only available to users of business and academic mainframe= s > and minicomputers, I=E2=80=99d argue that the other two contenders, Solar= is and > HP-UX, are sufficiently rare in comparison to the availability even of th= e > open source BSD=E2=80=99s that the word =E2=80=9Cavailable=E2=80=9D would= be doing some rather > heavy lifting if I were to include them.) The BSDs (except macOS and > whatever SCO=E2=80=99s cash cow is called this evening) are also open sou= rce, of > course, which is inline with the spirit of early Unix. > > I=E2=80=99ve not done an audit - and am not qualified to - but I suspect = the main > objection to this line of thinking is that despite the fact it still runs > on VAX, it would not surprise me in the least to find that (excluding > comments, perhaps), not a single line of code remains the same in NetBSD = 10 > (and indeed several versions prior) to the equivalent in V7 - and again, > I=E2=80=99ve no idea how much of V1 remains in V7, nor (other than knowin= g it was > written in assembly) how closely early PDP-11 versions resembled PDP-7 > versions. By then, I suspect we really are getting into the Ship of These= us > problem - as the ancient Greeks would have been familiar with the issue, = by > the time every single plank of Theseus=E2=80=99 Ship has been replaced be= cause the > old ones have decayed, is it really the Ship of Theseus anymore? > > Plus of course, though it=E2=80=99s more a legal issue than a philosophic= al one, > not only at least one version of Mach-based macOS, but also one > distribution of Linux - which is known not to contain either Minix or UN= IX > code - have been certified as UNIX by The Open Group. > > My 2c > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 5 Jun 2024, at 18:51, Will Senn wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 6/5/24 12:34 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > >>> On Wednesday, June 5th, 2024 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Lynch via TUHS < > tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi > >>> > >>> Out of curiosity, what would be considered the most direct descendent > of Unix available today? > >>> > >>> ... > >>> > >>> Thanks, Andrew Lynch > >> snip > >> Given this, my humble opinion (which again this sort of thing I believ= e > is largely a philosophical matter of opinion...) is that the BSD line > captures the spirit of Research UNIX much more than System V does, while > System V retains much more of the source code lineage of what most folks > would consider a "pure" UNIX. Of course all of this too is predicated on > treating V7 (really 32V...) as that central point of divergence. > > When I saw this thread appear, I was of two minds about it, but this > lines up with where my thoughts were headed. I've done a lot of delving > into the v6/v7 environments over the last 10 years or so and it feels muc= h > closer in kinship to BSD derivatives than to SysV... source code lineages > aside. Also, I get more mileage out of my BSD books and docs than those > treating SysV. I'd vote for *BSD as sticking closest to the unix way, if > there is still such a thing... I say this as I just typed 'kldload linux6= 4' > into freebsd's terminal so I could run sublime alongside nvi... sometimes= I > wish I was a purist, but I'm way too fond of experimentation :). > > > > Will > --00000000000010ac6d061a28ea4b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 11:23=E2=80=AFAM Jeffrey Joshua R= ollin <jefftwopointzero@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Following th= is line of thought, - and with the disclaimer that my own personal existenc= e begins roughly where what has been called =E2=80=9CThe Last True UNIX=E2= =80=9D [Seventh Edition] ends, I=E2=80=99d say that, if ESR - who I know ca= n be controversial - is correct, =E2=80=9CBSD won in the marketplace, but S= ystem V won the standards wars=E2=80=9D or words to that effect.

With that in mind, and given that NetBSD was forked from 386BSD and in turn= gave rise to the other BSDs around today,

That is not true. FreeBSD imported t= he 386BSD plus patchkit patches into its CVS tree. It did not inport NetBSD= 's source, though NetBSD did import the same sources into their CVS rep= o days (or maybe weeks) earlier.=C2=A0 Much of this early history, though, = is not widely available as the early NetBSD and FreeBSD CVS repos are not a= vailable in their original form due to the AT&T lawsuit.

And then the redo of these groups of = the 4.4BSD import, the 4.4BSD-lite and lite 2 rebased both projects further= muddy the waters since they now were both based on approximately the same = pure from CSRG sources, rendering the earlier messiness perhaps moot. Or pe= rhaps not, but not a point that has universal agreement, even among those i= nvolved in doing the work.

It also gets muddy because of the original patchkit authors also spinter= ed to for both NetBSD and FreeBSD in a way that's most kindly described= as messy, so much spin was broadcast to characterize who was first or best= . The truth is that the split was messy and definitive statements around th= is are troublesome at best.

Warner

it would be my candidate for = =E2=80=9Cmost direct descendant available today,=E2=80=9D particularly if w= e=E2=80=99re talking wide availability. (Whilst V1-6 and beyond were of cou= rse only available to users of business and academic mainframes and minicom= puters, I=E2=80=99d argue that the other two contenders, Solaris and HP-UX,= are sufficiently rare in comparison to the availability even of the open s= ource BSD=E2=80=99s that the word =E2=80=9Cavailable=E2=80=9D would be doin= g some rather heavy lifting if I were to include them.) The BSDs (except ma= cOS and whatever SCO=E2=80=99s cash cow is called this evening) are also op= en source, of course, which is inline with the spirit of early Unix.

I=E2=80=99ve not done an audit - and am not qualified to - but I suspect th= e main objection to this line of thinking is that despite the fact it still= runs on VAX, it would not surprise me in the least to find that (excluding= comments, perhaps), not a single line of code remains the same in NetBSD 1= 0 (and indeed several versions prior) to the equivalent in V7 - and again, = I=E2=80=99ve no idea how much of V1 remains in V7, nor (other than knowing = it was written in assembly) how closely early PDP-11 versions resembled PDP= -7 versions. By then, I suspect we really are getting into the Ship of Thes= eus problem - as the ancient Greeks would have been familiar with the issue= , by the time every single plank of Theseus=E2=80=99 Ship has been replaced= because the old ones have decayed, is it really the Ship of Theseus anymor= e?

Plus of course, though it=E2=80=99s more a legal issue than a philosophical= one, not only at least one version of Mach-based macOS, but also one distr= ibution=C2=A0 of Linux - which is known not to contain either Minix or UNIX= code - have been certified as UNIX by The Open Group.

My 2c

Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Jun 2024, at 18:51, Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 6/5/24 12:34 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 5th, 2024 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Lynch via TUHS= <= tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity, what would be considered the most direct des= cendent of Unix available today?
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Thanks, Andrew Lynch
>> snip
>> Given this, my humble opinion (which again this sort of thing I be= lieve is largely a philosophical matter of opinion...) is that the BSD line= captures the spirit of Research UNIX much more than System V does, while S= ystem V retains much more of the source code lineage of what most folks wou= ld consider a "pure" UNIX.=C2=A0 Of course all of this too is pre= dicated on treating V7 (really 32V...) as that central point of divergence.=
> When I saw this thread appear, I was of two minds about it, but this l= ines up with where my thoughts were headed. I've done a lot of delving = into the v6/v7 environments over the last 10 years or so and it feels much = closer in kinship to BSD derivatives than to SysV... source code lineages a= side. Also, I get more mileage out of my BSD books and docs than those trea= ting SysV. I'd vote for *BSD as sticking closest to the unix way, if th= ere is still such a thing... I say this as I just typed 'kldload linux6= 4' into freebsd's terminal so I could run sublime alongside nvi... = sometimes I wish I was a purist, but I'm way too fond of experimentatio= n :).
>
> Will
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