From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24975 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2023 15:05:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Jan 2023 15:05:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F5C4244B; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 01:05:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f41.google.com (mail-ed1-f41.google.com [209.85.208.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D39D42422 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 01:04:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f41.google.com with SMTP id v30so3186332edb.9 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:04:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M6NROvTllr+eCkbhfzRuv5X8SDt5Zy7jEyFpO36RSrc=; b=5f1lKQ4ySM7MGDbChTKoiw2kwWViNkFNbsa0VekzkJ9YOEHFkUzgbs/UCHxp+D3d3P NYVl0oqxOY2Bv4/kmSyQOPRFqIUlWyXh9EeZRMHTYVGw+yvYvxUB8AbAv7REdJDbLiuc jYrdWUeF39muKEOBvqDciKNzhZZupPTf+J+LBtIUYfXGZQA/VIxwvhhZnSF0c6z7hShk YGL0hbkzTCmvPYGwl+EKonA2bzt7At7+NQSyoDVwNRAf+71UybD9iIbjgNXXZ4+5w+gQ BsBlbw5xsD69bW9DQsJ+iyv/GvePKA/Q9ggz9TPCfDwszqAhvt9i+9lopjRoIj2y0J9z qD7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=M6NROvTllr+eCkbhfzRuv5X8SDt5Zy7jEyFpO36RSrc=; b=vkl+6AlFT/7gSue4EtHFM3hivylgHoFi1XnoZKKApXYg9feKzsj+8b1jT2b5BMBUE4 s8vDMX+flGNjg/9zL3gUbXPZ2OU7j6OxHWskeIidHUIacGuHpbkuyn5AijI11ccyiWOu T4AyHA7vj9bzAkOOD+ARqj5kSU3zuf+Y1YCatU094QkkXKYMNExw1FQo8hgTiRMrvdnI iKDchS8II1M1KUyYgJCcDyJa7atYoHqCaW0htkow5afbGrgWlGhqfL0jnllLraugWo8B CfEiNINrdlri7kfJmJJVH/lLzv954UxNExNaBo55fzzh49ewQupTdJ+uh0dd0/8T12eR Znmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpSk0IiR1hE/jSUa0YHH9S6MQBMqQS9B4VF+pdTwcw2WMsjbY9G GfaUWGv38PLuJzzTu5ZYFMT6dJymPIC99upkCoQFNtJd8A+SPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtiJFEjDIyWzf6qfaDUYm/ktQ48yivZykjjPoVOS+lq2jjhzc079yWZLWvctB6zUPnyQZsVIEMGIlHYdoR6u0g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2889:b0:498:61f5:5734 with SMTP id eg9-20020a056402288900b0049861f55734mr869843edb.238.1674140638072; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:03:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301180943.30I9hrOw030485@freefriends.org> <202301181446.30IEkSNt050612@ultimate.com> <20230118145554.3B27F20145@orac.inputplus.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 08:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Liam Proven Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009779c05f29f3ee7" Message-ID-Hash: QEU6WYRN34OHW45SNMCHUN3AX6RAXO6F X-Message-ID-Hash: QEU6WYRN34OHW45SNMCHUN3AX6RAXO6F X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000009779c05f29f3ee7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:44 AM Liam Proven wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 15:56, Ralph Corderoy > wrote: > > > > The fine article ends with > > *Heh* > > > =E2=80=98Which means that the last officially trademarked commercial= UNIX=E2=84=A2 is > > Apple's macOS 13, which underneath the proprietary GUI layer is > mostly > > an open source OS called Darwin anyway. The kernel, XNU, is based = on > > Mach with an in-kernel "Unix server" derived from FreeBSD...=E2=80= =99 > > =E2=80=94 https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/17/unix_is_dead/ > > Indeed it does. I wrote it. Thanks to Arnold for posting it. > > I am getting some grief on Twitter too for "omitting" FreeBSD. I > didn't, but the BSDs don't fit either definition of "Unix". The > pre-1993 one being "based on AT&T code" -- after all, BSD (4.4 Lite r2 > was it? Before my time!) -- went to a lot of effort to eliminate AT&T > code. The post-'93 definition, after Novell donated the trademark to > the Open Group, is "passed Open Group testing". Nobody has the time or > the inclination to pay, and indeed, why should they? > Yes. I think I tweeted that all the BSDs are derived from Unix. This is very true: V7 was ported to the VAX by AT&T which produced 32V (which had a lot of different versions, but Berkeley started with an early one, before V7 was officially released). Berkeley added demand paging to it to create 3BSD, 4BSD, etc. While much of the original AT&T code was re-written, it was replaced with functionally equivalent code so the system behaved the same before / after the rewrite. In many cases the rewrite was an improvement, in some it wasn't. More importantly, though, it retained much of the structure of the original AT&T code, especailly in the kernel. So if you understood the BSD code, you'd understand the System V code and vice versa at least at a gross level. Ditto all the commercial Unixes which also, btw, rewrote a substantial portion of the original AT&T code. All the BSDs is derived from Unix, but can't use the Unix trademark... There have been people that have run the compliance suite over the years against the different BSD, producing patches that fixed issues (though the last one I recall was in the early 2000s). But since nobody paid for official certification, nobody knows how close things are thees days. A similar level of rewrite and restructuring has happened to Linux over the years. Outside of drivers, very little remains even from the 2.x days of Linux, let alone the 1.x or 0.x lines. It too has been rewritten from having strong assumptions about running on a single CPU to scaling to thousands of CPUs these days. A similar evolution has happened in the BSDs, though with different paths taken in the different forks. > I hope to return to the subject of the BSDs in general on the Reg in > future. > That would be cool... Warner --00000000000009779c05f29f3ee7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:44 AM Liam = Proven <lproven@gmail.com> w= rote:
On Wed, 18= Jan 2023 at 15:56, Ralph Corderoy <ralph@inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The fine article ends with

*Heh*

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=98Which means that the last officially trademarked= commercial UNIX=E2=84=A2 is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Apple's macOS 13, which underneath the propriet= ary GUI layer is mostly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an open source OS called Darwin anyway.=C2=A0 The k= ernel, XNU, is based on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mach with an in-kernel "Unix server" deri= ved from FreeBSD...=E2=80=99
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94 = https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/17/unix_is_dead/

Indeed it does. I wrote it. Thanks to Arnold for posting it.

I am getting some grief on Twitter too for "omitting" FreeBSD. I<= br> didn't, but the BSDs don't fit either definition of "Unix"= ;. The
pre-1993 one being "based on AT&T code" -- after all, BSD (4.= 4 Lite r2
was it? Before my time!) -- went to a lot of effort to eliminate AT&T code. The post-'93 definition, after Novell donated the trademark to the Open Group, is "passed Open Group testing". Nobody has the ti= me or
the inclination to pay, and indeed, why should they?
<= br>
Yes. I think I tweeted that all the BSDs are derived from Uni= x. This is very true: V7 was ported to the VAX by AT&T which produced 3= 2V (which had a lot of different versions, but Berkeley started with an ear= ly one, before V7 was officially released). Berkeley added demand paging to= it to create 3BSD, 4BSD, etc. While much of the original AT&T code was= re-written, it was replaced with functionally equivalent code so the syste= m behaved the same before / after the rewrite. In many cases the rewrite wa= s an improvement, in some it wasn't. More importantly, though, it retai= ned much of the structure of the original AT&T code, especailly in the = kernel. So if you understood the BSD code, you'd understand the System = V code and vice versa at least at a gross level. Ditto all the commercial U= nixes which also, btw, rewrote a substantial portion of the original AT&= ;T code. All the BSDs is derived from Unix, but can't use the Unix trad= emark... There have been people that have run the compliance suite over the= years against the different BSD, producing patches that fixed issues (thou= gh the last one I recall was in the early 2000s). But since nobody paid for= official certification, nobody knows how close things are thees days.
<= /div>

A similar level of rewrite and restructuring has h= appened to Linux over the years. Outside of drivers, very little remains ev= en from the 2.x days of Linux, let alone the 1.x or 0.x lines. It too has b= een rewritten from having strong assumptions about running on a single CPU = to scaling to thousands of CPUs these days. A similar evolution has happene= d in the BSDs, though with different paths taken in the different forks.
=C2=A0
I hope to return to the subject of the BSDs in general on the Reg in future= .

That would be cool...

<= /div>
Warner


=C2=A0
<= /div>
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