From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15292 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2023 23:30:38 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Mar 2023 23:30:38 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C11441325; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:30:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E594941322 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:30:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id z21so953072edb.4 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:30:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678923020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=HY5vfUu/b30SbfCJn+s9/HQQv2IBOi8BZc4cjC5cBwM=; b=ZVbg/YXijFEIHX4nvYKxb+7ZzNvzn2xaGpVGdZPEUB/dmsc56iVJCecjtsHVBh5RTL uveTJj0oJcSKN9zUldjRj2MvsI3Y/TKfKvrow4YkqvhsjoMXt7eC7KnpOqNlFYQeIEGi 7yLBsOp02EBBEoYlHhTr25dsxTXd4+FIczz7pEXJ6O5CC7QrHBaFk8Ff2O5zM1uVGHnO NdcKza28cnXZDFO7h4Pa30rbiX7DBP0y5oTaca60Fgt5TCE3jbrCa2rwy40X3fEMjSGE kMAiX6WHYoOpOCxpbgbxqGCzroLwAOBSKETC1VxnHGl6yZ0/27Jykzyvm6+DWAuIblnL l0VA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678923020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=HY5vfUu/b30SbfCJn+s9/HQQv2IBOi8BZc4cjC5cBwM=; b=HLHnyRVZI9pn9q8Xbug15d8VqCB5GTl09Xxeg6IIXMTb/g9LO8ArqNbjCPw/wpOpAF UnxZ+zo41qxMdt7zoVUO+qg1Ud8nU62hHF2WmlNJXZl7mG5DdlTzK20sJ6GM6PbZE3dj 7LCbbJ8vcJU3VzoxMLAGLXLVDF3UnXYefLEldH8pgIUJmf6FFbiozjbeBfhSSU+qSsqk ZgfYmcgzYVuUX7kpAPoKUNo7z1capXtQQKmnQ6Dh6gm5yCu2GNFalyWYMeMeOsslhsdz 6/myeOSeYXdenNzEiB6G3T3IUWCS21oAx0+M+8bd0DuZr/jMwdNgmr30ZAgGkqeejKwW TQpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWbze3EekpCL3HsauIaZDpnbpdTc2ukP5NRNOhxvCvLCDB4H0H1 5spplLJSgn6GCfVWhmLIf88BYwcHVFBUNs27aICvH/mTlpEt4dIt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8j/LRmvnnd1U8U0OEYFZvL+bTsugnqeYMdLTBVLkpourHEivOYTyiM05nOkHbqVYhrzBX7S55tzBtxBg3DVgs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:98c7:b0:888:6294:a1fd with SMTP id kd7-20020a17090798c700b008886294a1fdmr4220960ejc.2.1678923019986; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230315115947.A0CC418C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <984bc9a1-70ea-4032-be21-b99f8d40e897@app.fastmail.com> <20230315212201.GY27975@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:30:08 -0600 Message-ID: To: steve jenkin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000363e3205f6f8ba62" Message-ID-Hash: 2BIDO6I3QOQIN5JATK5NSNQGVJS2EZ47 X-Message-ID-Hash: 2BIDO6I3QOQIN5JATK5NSNQGVJS2EZ47 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX System V Release 2.2 gdts Vax-780 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000363e3205f6f8ba62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AFPM steve jenkin wrote: > "What =E2=80=9Cuses=E2=80=9D would SysV codebase have now?" may be a bett= er Q. > A System V release 2 might have very limited use (old VAXen are all it ran on from AT&T though there were at least a few ports: 68k for sure). The successor code base of OpenIndiana which forked from OpenSolaris which was System Vr4 plus a bunch... And that's open... illumos is still using that for its distribution... They'd have been totally dead, imho, were it not for OpenZFS using illumos for so long as the reference platform (that's changed, so now Linux and FreeBSD are the reference platforms, though one of those two is more equal than the other). But the successor code base being open isn't quite the same as System V being open. There's no 'orphan exception' or 'abandonware rider' that would allow us to distribute this without any legal risk. But there's the rub: what's the legal risk. The legal risk here is that somebody could show up and assert they have rights to the software, and that we're distributing it illegally. Actual damages likely are near $0 these days, but statutory damages could become quite excessive. But to get damages, one would likely need a lot of money to fight it, and there's not any kind of real revenue stream from System V today (let alone from System V r2). Plus, were this successfully prosecuted, it's not like that would increase that revenue stream: TUHS has no assets, so the current IP owner would have to somehow assess there was blood to be had from this stone, which is unlikely... So, how do you rate the risk of a low-probability, high damage outcome vs the near certainty of a no-damage outcome. Since it's none of our butt's but Warren's, he gets to decide his comfort zone here. :) So the risk of adverse consequences is likely low, but not zero were we to distribute this without a license to do so. There's plenty of others that are doing so today, but that's between the others and whatever IP owners Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice... Warner --000000000000363e3205f6f8ba62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AF= PM steve jenkin <sjenkin@can= b.auug.org.au> wrote:
"What =E2=80=9Cuses=E2=80=9D would SysV codebase have now= ?" may be a better Q.

A System V r= elease 2 might have very limited use (old VAXen are all it ran on from
AT&T though there were at least a few ports: 68k for sure).
=

The successor code base of OpenIndiana which forked fro= m OpenSolaris which was System Vr4 plus a bunch... And that's open... i= llumos is still using that for its distribution... They'd have been tot= ally dead, imho, were it not for OpenZFS using illumos for so long as the r= eference platform (that's changed, so now Linux and FreeBSD are the ref= erence platforms, though one of those two is more equal than the other).

But the successor code base being open isn't qui= te the same as System V being open. There's no 'orphan exception= 9; or 'abandonware rider' that would allow us to distribute this wi= thout any legal risk.

But there's the rub: wha= t's the legal risk.=C2=A0The legal risk here is that somebody could sho= w up and assert they have rights to the software, and that we're distri= buting it illegally. Actual damages likely are near $0 these days, but stat= utory damages could become quite excessive. But to get damages, one would l= ikely need a lot of money to fight it, and there's not any kind of real= revenue stream from System V today (let alone from System V r2). Plus, wer= e this successfully prosecuted, it's not like that would increase that = revenue stream: TUHS has no assets, so the current IP owner would have to s= omehow assess there was blood to be had from this stone, which is unlikely.= .. So, how do you rate the risk of a low-probability, high damage outcome v= s the near certainty of a no-damage outcome. Since it's none of our but= t's but Warren's, he gets to decide his comfort zone here. :)
=

So the risk of adverse consequences is likely low, but = not zero were we to distribute this without a license to do so. There's= plenty of others that are doing so today, but that's between the other= s and whatever IP owners=C2=A0

Disclaimer: I'm= not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice...

= Warner

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