From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4b261195 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 01:42:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8802F9BDA4; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:42:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486C99BD1C; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:42:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="P0ktTwyp"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A995F94798; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:42:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com (mail-qk1-f172.google.com [209.85.222.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D45EF9478F for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:42:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id i78so34615532qke.11 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:42:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cPk2SohKhDveny8POJtg5P3SzWb/0AblYybC+O+81EQ=; b=P0ktTwypJZIEvBzCmqY58Uszi5/OUt+vV2X0IbDwiqPDaz/R61njHZFgiRlWoD8Y5b l+EaCFUUUsEyCbtfXV9M6yOHhZOTLkbdbaI+qSLiGXAQFFV6aZqDif5b16UBncp2VDFJ 3ssbqfZFWNll/KKHwtFAqn0q1WN64P1z/zWMPHEQYgXNpa/dprLyiBECXi2D9fHAMAZy YWV3SPPOlCdc/tD+I1YDdaCoaog4XMjIfvKumRfap7pM2m6A9Sbn0IJEw5Nf0DxMojrM rLK5DwXfRJ34eLFiNivExrYtBytXelinfKkvVe+7hqplI+etRm5eecjX3R4p56nuLwwu 2TnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cPk2SohKhDveny8POJtg5P3SzWb/0AblYybC+O+81EQ=; b=au75amtuGLIYv0/QPLPAi8IUqLEoMKAfuuD0+1DKa5PaPIINQ0qbj6U9qiQsBZOX0T EyLkkQyJTZmUhRQH1g343LovaHrlc9953lu85Kgwb4LdAx3jBAqmB8jEaAIdSw2b1Eq/ em7i/qVI18C1dn0GEpI3QK+eh4pr9+ByNCptN1PaOZ93n/MvTNvBqDRwPDMyREqW6Xit LuL9NEqAlYnI2l5SpJbaNBavV9BMOh0Ve+/9MJIm0Tu61FqArf5QUp9HlLf2sawWR1nL UEjjKWpHutkApgcPZ/z/i0j84rMhyTvgUKu2Zj9rur4ky47STHAu1eJ4KSU4Wb1vaoax 7tiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXK7IMjDKDMifQEt+xhbXSh1WZA1lGOcF7tp1rmQeFvr71XboKr PON+H39/1VHR5Tmavibh76mQl3XTtopHgROb1FpQAw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxr1Pbz609yTYzsL0YpdXAOBANuBeSwi3LC1HOM4DFx12lcTIc8TPRJWrJHAhqhxljq3oU2WcRNFqqM9cubrYA= X-Received: by 2002:a37:7bc7:: with SMTP id w190mr14732169qkc.215.1568598156713; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:42:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190915232524.9A5491570CE9@mail.bitblocks.com> In-Reply-To: <20190915232524.9A5491570CE9@mail.bitblocks.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 02:42:23 +0100 Message-ID: To: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed370f0592a1b732" Subject: Re: [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ed370f0592a1b732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 12:25 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:46:42 -0400 Clem Cole wrote: > > > > The first UNIX clone that I know about was a V6 version by Whitesmiths, > > called Idris, I want to say in 1977/78. I believe that Michel's Gien's > > Pascal clone that he talked about a year later started out as V6, but > > morphed to V7 before he was done (and then later morphed again to become > > Chorus in a C++ rewrote). Mike Malcolm's Thoth (which "Thucks" by the > way, > > my wife threw out my tee-shirt years ago;-) was a pseudo V6 clone. I > > Acc. to a paper[1] by Cheriton, Malcom and Melen did the > original small run time executive called Thoth. Cheriton > rewrote it to form the kernel of the system described in the > Feb 1979 CACM article. It used memory mapping, swapping. etc. > They also added a filesystem. > Cataloguing all the clones was out of scope for my talk... there are a huge number that are known, and many more that aren't... I likely could do a whole talk on just that... Warner Thoth could not have been a clone of v6. It used message > passing. More RPC than pipes. And it had "teams", where a > "team" is roughly the same as a Unix process (separate address > space) and a Thoth "process" was a thread in that address > space. root was "*" (instead of "/") and current dir was "@" > (instead "."). A bigger difference was that it had *nodes* or > files and any file can have sub nodes. There was no > separation between files and directories. > > It was an interesting system and a lot of different things > were tried in it. In 1980-81 timeframe AMD forked off a > separate company called AMC to build microcomputers. They > chose Thoth. I almost worked there but in the end decided I'd > rather do unix and joined Fortune and soon after AMD came to > its senses and shut AMC down. > > [1] https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/research/tr/1979/CS-79-19.pdf > > > As I mentioned before the first commercial user of UNIX was Rand > > Corporation in LA. Al Arms of AT&T legal wrote the original $15K/CPU > > license for them. I don't know how many of those licenses were made > > available, but I've always been under the impression it was under 10. > Like > > a lot of people at the time, this was when the 'glass tty' was just > showing > > up in force and Rand updated/wrote a version of ed(1) called the rand(1) > > editor [IIRC, its still available as the 'grand editor' from Dave Yost]. > > The Rand editor e had nothing in common with ed(1). e > descended from NED, a 2D editor, invented by Ned Irons in 1967 > and described in "A CRT editing system" CACM Jan 1972. > > The "Grand editor", derived from e19 is long gone. Even Dave > gave up on it long ago. Though you can find a separate > version on the 'Net, also derived from e19. e with its > multiple windows was a joy to use on a 60 line Ann Arbor > Ambassador terminal. I use acme because it too is a tiling > editor like e. It has some goodies not in e but overall e > was a better experience. > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rand/R-2176-ARPA_The_CRT_Text_Editor_NED_Dec77.pdf > --000000000000ed370f0592a1b732 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 12:25 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:46:42 -0400 Clem Col= e <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> The first UNIX clone that I know about was a V6 version by Whitesmiths= ,
> called Idris, I want to say in 1977/78.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe that Mic= hel's Gien's
> Pascal clone that he talked about a year later started out as V6, but<= br> > morphed to V7 before he was done (and then later morphed again to beco= me
> Chorus in a C++ rewrote).=C2=A0 Mike Malcolm's Thoth (which "= Thucks" by the way,
> my wife threw out my tee-shirt years ago;-) was a pseudo V6 clone.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0I

Acc. to a paper[1] by Cheriton, Malcom and Melen did the
original small run time executive called Thoth. Cheriton
rewrote it to form the kernel of the system described in the
Feb 1979 CACM article. It used memory mapping, swapping. etc.
They also added a filesystem.


Cataloguing all th= e clones was out of scope for my talk... there are a huge number that are k= nown, and many more that aren't...

I likely could do a whole talk on just that...

Warner=C2=A0
<= br>

Thoth could not have been a clone of v6.=C2=A0 It used message
passing. More RPC than pipes. And it had "teams", where a
"team" is roughly the same as a Unix process (separate address space) and a Thoth "process" was a thread in that address
space.=C2=A0 root was "*" (instead of "/") and current = dir was "@"
(instead ".").=C2=A0 A bigger difference was that it had *nodes* = or
files and any file can have sub nodes.=C2=A0 There was no
separation between files and directories.

It was an interesting system and a lot of different things
were tried in it. In 1980-81 timeframe AMD forked off a
separate company called AMC to build microcomputers. They
chose Thoth.=C2=A0 I almost worked there but in the end decided I'd
rather do unix and joined Fortune and soon after AMD came to
its senses and shut AMC down.

[1] https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/resear= ch/tr/1979/CS-79-19.pdf

> As I mentioned before the first commercial user of UNIX was Rand
> Corporation in LA.=C2=A0 Al Arms of AT&T legal wrote the original = $15K/CPU
> license for them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't know how many of those licen= ses were made
> available, but I've always been under the impression it was under = 10.=C2=A0 Like
> a lot of people at the time, this was when the 'glass tty' was= just showing
> up in force and Rand updated/wrote a version of ed(1) called the rand(= 1)
> editor [IIRC, its still available as the 'grand editor' from D= ave Yost].

The Rand editor e had nothing in common with ed(1).=C2=A0 e
descended from NED, a 2D editor, invented by Ned Irons in 1967
and described in "A CRT editing system" CACM Jan 1972.

The "Grand editor", derived from e19 is long gone. Even Dave
gave up on it long ago.=C2=A0 Though you can find a separate
version on the 'Net, also derived from e19.=C2=A0 e with its
multiple windows was a joy to use on a 60 line Ann Arbor
Ambassador terminal. I use acme because it too is a tiling
editor like e. It has some goodies not in e but overall e
was a better experience.

http://www= .bitsavers.org/pdf/rand/R-2176-ARPA_The_CRT_Text_Editor_NED_Dec77.pdf
--000000000000ed370f0592a1b732--