From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16909 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2022 00:11:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jun 2022 00:11:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02570421FE; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 10:11:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3EC2421FD for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 10:10:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id l13so7357521vsi.13 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 17:10:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=u8E4djl4Es3JaypyU4R4CRx+D/36AiBPbbb69eobSHU=; b=btuRh3FnwjFdMdQhk9+Bz1QiLC163nbfoaE/Can7+7MMA/qbF9d5SM4QDK+I5Rxl6s Lq/eqhs/ommlUvgdNXP8J3Nm23M1KNE6KQG4TaQ14dJGaunCc52G+J8IkzYlstLhYUEw ZbEBb41yl3tEeg5mOnPm1q/Niv9eyxNUO8S6O+eJzyCBZcOQfP4bW4tf5RKgf/P45zRD 5cWWAhrIWzy7+kdG6bobR/lwYn0f0rJa+jJmnpCBMzIETxjgQJiqAeHXLX5g1pBiWKyY 7JWreoxdrsKoeZeQKe6QozFdNqcjQFKZLgHfITQRzKqrrUQkarjmrVihyd4ZfbO+d0dr DkzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u8E4djl4Es3JaypyU4R4CRx+D/36AiBPbbb69eobSHU=; b=YnhaGpqxYUrx5vnIhi1jBvmG21OgpGCAh8tvP/SFQ5bPrsCLKfY6KffHf3V7f3HA1p jXIZDwCv8a1ZPplH29JxLOKqwZAfGFSQMI7DhB0tuCxkXwRKZwnREtonEGrNVxBBNUuV zrVKyvm8Xjm2YwgIsnAVtrZlwFuNNJcPuPcV5KpmRcremYzcZimQSX2Tcut3bvqIWPhw 9uGyz8YkPvFq/LEvqfdKN0P+QhN7z8EoxABcNdvQlEULN14AkKIj0c6dqrpDjx49u5EP OReKmBuQEApXxotK/Z8SvfFNoY9FlccID/cVFqP+nXwuMX4jxEKicpTyQBAlBDUYwRG7 XHDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531eYC8gGZ42kwH4WWAKClPCu6XSYN1vyEIgEeK1ep5+/7EzJmcB bIg+4sNsV5Vb9KsmeJPxzDs3wkkGJZsHqaVoI0/N0j1PAxA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+PXzOU3ZIwz/6HHqaP/Rtw7eu8MsJg8SecRQfTmBEPcMzJBIoz0vKXOOnm6RBsOMSdq+EX5SbhcBOPCdqk3E= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:441b:b0:349:edb6:24d6 with SMTP id df27-20020a056102441b00b00349edb624d6mr5928679vsb.11.1654301457819; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 17:10:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220603202330.f4spdxyn34uiyy5v@illithid> <20220603213215.GO10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603214032.GQ10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603223014.GS10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603234822.GV10240@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20220603234822.GV10240@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 18:10:46 -0600 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bec51c05e094121a" Message-ID-Hash: SBAAA5IWUU7HFRCACWXSU6LNJSKXLUL6 X-Message-ID-Hash: SBAAA5IWUU7HFRCACWXSU6LNJSKXLUL6 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000bec51c05e094121a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 5:48 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Fri, Jun 03, 2022 at 04:52:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > The problem is there was {386,Net,Free,Open,DragonFly}BSD where there > > > should have just been "BSD". One, not a bunch. > > > > > > > Except from 1993-1996 there were only two of those BSDs. NetBSD and > FreeBSD > > forked in 1993 due to the inability of the patchkit to adequately cover > the > > problems > > in 386BSD governance. > > Um, so there were 3: 386, Net and Free. That's already 2 too many. > No. 386BSD died before then. > > Where do you think Linux would be if there was {A,B,C,D,E,F,G}Linux? > > > There is one kernel. One and only one. With everyone working on that > > > one kernel. > > > > Except there never really was only one kernel. There have been hundreds > > of forks of the Linux kernel over the years. Most of them have been > > commercial > > of some flavor (Redhat, Debian, OpenSUSE, MontaVista, WindRiver, Android > > etc) > > had hundreds or thousands of patches on the base Linux kernel for a long > > time > > and trying to move from one to another if you also had patches was a > > nightmare. > > So I had a successful commercial product that ran on all of those variants > without issue. I supported linux on everything from ARM to IBM's z-system > mainframes and all the arches inbetween. I think I have one #ifdef SPARC > in there because there was a cache flush bug but that was a hardware issue, > not a software issue. > > I also supported {Free,Net,Open}BSD and I had way more problems with them > than I did with Linux. > > > Kernel.org has kept going, and many of the chanages from these systems > were > > lost. > > Some were not as good as what came in upstream, while others were > encumbered > > by commercial contracts that made them unappealing to upstream. True, > many > > of > > them did wind up in kernel.org, but to say there aren't forks in Linux > is > > stretching > > reality a bit... > > There is one kernel development stream that matters. RedHat knows that > if they don't get their stuff into Linus' tree, they have a nightmare > on their hands. That's why RedHat paid so many of the kernel developers. > > Sure, there are forks, but there is one tree that matters, and that is > Linus' tree. You can't say that about BSD and that is the problem in > it's entirety. If I want to change BSD, which one? > By your standards, only FreeBSD matters... so that's easy.. but you already said Redhat is all that matters... and that kernel differs somewhat from Linus'. Ditto if you are dealing with Android... it's not just one Linux and never has been. Warner > --000000000000bec51c05e094121a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 5:48 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 03, 2022 at 04:52:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wro= te:
> > The problem is there was {386,Net,Free,Open,DragonFly}BSD where t= here
> > should have just been "BSD".=C2=A0 One, not a bunch. > >
>
> Except from 1993-1996 there were only two of those BSDs. NetBSD and Fr= eeBSD
> forked in 1993 due to the inability of the patchkit to adequately cove= r the
> problems
> in 386BSD governance.

Um, so there were 3: 386, Net and Free.=C2=A0 That's already 2 too many= .

No. 386BSD died before then.=C2=A0

> > Where do you think Linux would be if there was {A,B,C,D,E,F,G}Lin= ux?
> > There is one kernel.=C2=A0 One and only one.=C2=A0 With everyone = working on that
> > one kernel.
>
> Except there never really was only one kernel. There have been hundred= s
> of forks of the Linux kernel over the years. Most of them have been > commercial
> of some flavor (Redhat, Debian, OpenSUSE, MontaVista, WindRiver, Andro= id
> etc)
> had hundreds or thousands of patches on the base Linux kernel for a lo= ng
> time
> and trying to move from one to another if you also had patches was a > nightmare.

So I had a successful commercial product that ran on all of those variants<= br> without issue.=C2=A0 I supported linux on everything from ARM to IBM's = z-system
mainframes and all the arches inbetween.=C2=A0 I think I have one #ifdef SP= ARC
in there because there was a cache flush bug but that was a hardware issue,=
not a software issue.

I also supported {Free,Net,Open}BSD and I had way more problems with them than I did with Linux.

> Kernel.org has kept going, and many of the chanages from these systems= were
> lost.
> Some were not as good as what came in upstream, while others were encu= mbered
> by commercial contracts that made them unappealing to upstream. True, = many
> of
> them did wind up in kernel.org, but to say there aren't for= ks in Linux is
> stretching
> reality a bit...

There is one kernel development stream that matters.=C2=A0 RedHat knows tha= t
if they don't get their stuff into Linus' tree, they have a nightma= re
on their hands.=C2=A0 That's why RedHat paid so many of the kernel deve= lopers.

Sure, there are forks, but there is one tree that matters, and that is
Linus' tree.=C2=A0 You can't say that about BSD and that is the pro= blem in
it's entirety.=C2=A0 If I want to change BSD, which one?

By your standar= ds, only FreeBSD matters... so that's easy.. but you already said Redha= t is all that matters... and that kernel differs somewhat from Linus'. = Ditto if you are dealing with Android... it's not just one Linux and ne= ver has been.

Warner
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