From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27957 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2023 17:18:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Sep 2023 17:18:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845D44101F; Tue, 5 Sep 2023 03:18:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE2C4100C for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2023 03:18:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-52bca2e8563so2250686a12.2 for ; Mon, 04 Sep 2023 10:18:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1693847909; x=1694452709; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AhuaR6wWeDYQPgp7+8oCliuShD51mT6AYR45bx+gjf0=; b=D64Bac4VLRCvnxx/JnEs7/Wrr6LRIj0CzaucdHMXzDvbmkrGGLdOiQ5nUkT6HLbJpm wpVEZP/u6d8W68vSV2xSriPFZttOoLiwLzm6LKSY7pnfxybUtq1ydVwl6fAtYrMX+7ih KiwbbPdwxkO7c/q/Jtuuw+0Jkmhv0unUc5u60Vk0QxgxfX7iJ3gcCTl6/Wem5WZZLIX8 gHjPtoVxzHyb0QH6s8OSKAprl2Vufzrkq8wEkMyjzL2Gc6CFUyjp6WT711XGEFD2IF7P loiK9znBduQ804c6XHz7XCV6jJT7wcyyTclelTpCoGPtzmDWiRMRlhLeON4mGfXDBcdY SFQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693847909; x=1694452709; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=AhuaR6wWeDYQPgp7+8oCliuShD51mT6AYR45bx+gjf0=; b=Mht01tB1w7AHlcpM5j3VnJYrDZoeCxxgKW88mNzBRwC21lBV/3F/FD2KDddkvN4n+9 XNfzbz7hUamDW2gtrIAA06BRG/SVH4i68MLxX5He2yPbjA1PmRcZvu3nVAkFrRwnlsd0 Z9R5x353CEtUtPruabGauq/kSoeenYi6sEa7Xsxe7FDV+3MyPSXAFlb2C5P3TtDizMUb 65hBDT90xndshXmkqmdtTyUgp/YyXZHkim1tVIRITHzcDUubnxZUuhP1c/M2HcFY1RGl yXwct/dXAJmNDP2rw0jUVm8WNmBKt1iszGo9+x4qCldaGPovL7fQ6nGeq+3F9rc7b8B2 5csw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw9aLmYOZoSkQyL4lh/PynIJPwQjqsSOO4iEBKNHUSsaC1tA91X T+3riYaUrrNOD4L+2zpSgmsldbMSkfFYPjhriJR2/OijLynyXszS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF6FlzOLeRiODqU5h7QL01/AsJuoqqtAaLvLOYFrYJgyVYPESUFptbkMzDbFzP/2NUBQIIaA6uq10kH1SJEhh0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1211:b0:523:bfec:490f with SMTP id c17-20020a056402121100b00523bfec490fmr8673606edw.0.1693847908622; Mon, 04 Sep 2023 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9A989054DE79CE5059CBA74797391E39.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> In-Reply-To: <9A989054DE79CE5059CBA74797391E39.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 11:18:18 -0600 Message-ID: To: Norman Wilson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5b78306048bb25b" Message-ID-Hash: 4EBCMEXYO4IMVA7XMHULCXZ2QS5EBF24 X-Message-ID-Hash: 4EBCMEXYO4IMVA7XMHULCXZ2QS5EBF24 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Unix install & "standalone" package List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e5b78306048bb25b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 8:44=E2=80=AFAM Norman Wilson wro= te: > Maybe it was just that the boot environment was simpler > in older systems, without the need to load kernel modules > or support multiple locations and means of access for > the root? > Older systems had fewer choices. On the PDP-11 you had Q-Bus or Unibus. You booted off a small selection of disks that converged to MSCP(?), so there was THE boot environment and THE driver and THE filesystem. And the kernels were often tuned to be exactly what the machine needed. The VAX, Sun, hp, ibm, etc continued this early trend. Though the boot process was still fairly narrow, with a limited list of supported boot devices. In large part this was because the machine was exactly the same every time you booted. But with USB, PC Card, CardBus, ExpressCard, SCSI, Thunderbolt, and a host of other removable technologies with a dizzying array of cards, like PCI, ISA, etc, the game changed. Also, the number of environments that a FreeBSD GENERIC[*] kernel can boot in is huge due to combinatoric explosion due to three or four boot environments, vm alternate startup paths, several supported root file system, BIOS, UEFI, OpenFirmware, u-boot, coreboot, etc as well as several thousand supported boot controller devices, things got complex, despite there being several common interfaces that made things simpler. I'm running a summer of code project this year to help tame the combinatoric explosion to provide better test coverage because though attempts were made to make things the same, variations exist that can cause unexpected breakage in different environments. Warner [*] I use GENERIC here as a catch all, including the more recent MINIMAL kernels that try to include just the core functionality, and omit the vast majority of drivers. Linux has similar issues, but more, and also solves them in many interesting ways... But I'm the FreeBSD boot loader guy in large part (though there's others that work on it), not a Linux person. --000000000000e5b78306048bb25b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 8:44=E2=80=AFA= M Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:
May= be it was just that the boot environment was simpler
in older systems, without the need to load kernel modules
or support multiple locations and means of access for
the root?



cards, like PCI, ISA, etc, the game changed.<= /div>

Also, the number of environments that a FreeBSD GE= NERIC[*] kernel
can boot in is huge due to combinatoric explosion= due to three or
four boot environments, vm alternate startup pat= hs, several supported
root file system, BIOS, UEFI, OpenFirmware,= u-boot, coreboot, etc
as well as several thousand supported boot= controller devices, things
got complex, despite there being seve= ral common interfaces that made
things simpler. I'm running a= summer of code project this year to help
tame the combinatoric e= xplosion to provide better test coverage because
though attempts = were made to make things the same, variations exist that
can caus= e unexpected breakage in different environments.

W= arner

[*] I use GENERIC here as a catch all, inclu= ding the more recent MINIMAL
kernels that try to include just the= core functionality, and omit the vast
majority of drivers. Linux= has similar issues, but more, and also solves
them in many inter= esting ways... But I'm the FreeBSD boot loader guy
in large p= art (though there's others that work on it), not a Linux person.
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