From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7625 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2020 16:40:34 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Dec 2020 16:40:34 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6430694506; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:40:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B264944D4; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:40:15 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="Wx70o4u+"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 461F9944D4; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:40:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f170.google.com (mail-qt1-f170.google.com [209.85.160.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29345944D3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:40:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f170.google.com with SMTP id p12so1352066qtp.7 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 08:40:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JAkOrX8NBmTZgNLrGMQc43gqg5QTsUTFG7qa+isegV8=; b=Wx70o4u+lFQWCkLhbVEJiav+qMBA5D556HRFc7npNHDlckDbOun3fEjbJ3xo2A4pWc QRKyye1K7HnVsCoHjO3T+s00H6VQnfL3nWkL1Q3lKEpCRHEdEm8iEhvmp+AQih2wexhP VJALKwBO8IChaT28HEqwL+WKWgw+5sfS+8vl9heLKAp5dy41l8aIawVUGPHAX+2n2pgg 92gAqcanCE6QRlqryDJr6sE2fcntwp3G/xtMRBBxXu7ci0IIUorU2z5KktD3VcC9tWj/ 048XVEVGn0O2gt1+zLR4RRQuGPAURtdNUrNSlGio7bY5kWEjiOJO+T4XdGv3woWabm2L RFGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JAkOrX8NBmTZgNLrGMQc43gqg5QTsUTFG7qa+isegV8=; b=qE3IArSa2fUhN026qmsyNAJvUyx29xcUi2YkiK8kq0eaebBN/wBoIcruUmGiR3fRig u3Ly8/fzJ7eV9v81aT0SKvjOr30Qh7W/xwJ6YIzeOnvzFWWU8Y7pKyDyhBg3VmWS0Eh7 XbHyx/fIOjqluO/3zyfS+QO9trMSMWUJG8MZCIeIHl7uttAm6fnMQnn89x24xWErq24J fPWyZG6hDk8WPg+ZgiITteucBlpvQArnAz+WdjnvqwwF4SBZt10TniPpGZfPNPOG7Jy/ VZ+oD8x1rczT4qbasOwJaDywebxJqGa9C8l5GXXaFKoMwsYF02vAzAaoOBXnpSPbpHZS HZmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Y0b5vXpNtFeqrjfc/mzEGjoq940aXfycC3G8VWL5PTxRB79xj 0sUhPYyhFt7rwxNWKxeWG1lzWxlR63klwcYiL35YAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzziUyEWn0uNfcugIAMm3547aOctu+Z0o0LJatGvIO9kZfRUqlKpbCfILI4lFS3qvCiaTOE10WNVhzAyx6mgV8= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:74d4:: with SMTP id j20mr3746335qtr.101.1607532011148; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 08:40:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:40:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d6b3805b60ab666" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Were cron and at done at the same time? Or one before the other? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000007d6b3805b60ab666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 8:41 AM Clem Cole wrote: > Amen Doug. > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:36 PM M Douglas McIlroy < > m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> To paraphrase John Cocke (speaking about Fortran): one must understand >> that Unix commands are not a logical language. They are a natural >> language--in the sense that they developed by organic evolution, not >> "intelligent design". >> > But I offer a suggestion that another dimension that should be forgotten > in time scale and the economics within. > > When things evolve they do so on different clocks that are not > necessarily linear. *i.e. *what was 'better' (winning) today, but might > not be considered so tomorrow, however could yet prove otherwise sometime > later. I use programming languages as a great example... There was a > huge C vs Pascal debate, that C 'won' - but I've always said the rise of > C++ came from the Pascal folks that could say "C didn't win." From the > ashes of C++ we have Java, Go, and Rust. > > My point is that "intelligent design" doesn't necessarily guarantee > goodness or for that matter,complete logical thinking. > > My own take on this is what I call "Cole's Law" *Simple economics > always beats sophisticated architecture.* > What you call *organic evolution* is what I think of what makes the *best > economic sense* for the user and that is a function of the time scale and > available resources at the time of creation/deployment. > I agree, but I thought Cole's Law was thinly sliced cabbage. Warner > > Clem > > --0000000000007d6b3805b60ab666 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 8:41 AM Clem C= ole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Amen Doug.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:36 PM M Douglas McIlroy <m.dougla= s.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
To paraphr= ase John Cocke (speaking about Fortran): one must understand
that Unix commands are not a logical language. They are a natural
language--in the sense that they developed by organic evolution, not
"intelligent design".
But I offer a suggestion that another dimension that should be= forgotten in time scale and the economics within.
=
When things evolve they do so on different clocks that are not ne= cessarily=C2=A0linear.=C2=A0 =C2=A0i.e. what was 'better' (w= inning) today, but might not be considered so tomorrow, however could yet p= rove otherwise sometime later.=C2=A0 I use programming languages as a great= example...=C2=A0 =C2=A0There was a huge C vs Pascal debate, that C 'wo= n' - but I've always said the rise of C++ came from the Pascal folk= s=C2=A0that could say=C2=A0"C didn't win."=C2=A0 From the ash= es of C++ we have Java, Go, and Rust.=C2=A0

My point is that=C2=A0 =C2=A0"intelligent design" doesn't = necessarily=C2=A0guarantee goodness or for that matter,complete logical thi= nking.

My own take on this is what I call= "Cole's Law"=C2=A0 =C2=A0S= imple economics always beats sophisticated architecture.
What you call organic evol= ution is what I think of what makes the best economic sense for = the user and that is a function of the time scale and available resources a= t the time of creation/deployment.

I agree, but I thought Cole's Law was thinly sli= ced cabbage.

Warner=C2=A0

C= lem

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