From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18683 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2022 16:39:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 7 Jun 2022 16:39:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B345C40CEE; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 02:39:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9928940CEB for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 02:39:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id p3so6004782uam.12 for ; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RsLYHPN1+28fYIg8gGamBC6b3c4Tg8+tDVo2O7FhVoM=; b=32kOQ6sOFjsOZX2w6DFLWmyK9vTMlQZlL8oqqeuh9GYctz8ZTbr724qSjbBDd7UMI4 b/JPkfMVCQJW8y5fSSSKLxAH5huod9cYjl8tqHDe3O5FczmCfLxdp9ZjwWWVpjnjW/mz /TmsaWGM1U1KrLOPyQjlpXnUhxporjrbFRyok98vuE5hJaWY/qotz0nNKMeHF8thwmy6 zySq0hnsuYz7ev1133VijfkZkl1Vnjak7134+4rBCMmgjGEogtMe/T+Uxhn34kGbnb2W DcQShEHMT2dMgzbNnsUZ2bANgxg21lVl2tOiWwklbJoEUNIidtuwR6Mv+Gi2mGxJ1jZ6 /lWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RsLYHPN1+28fYIg8gGamBC6b3c4Tg8+tDVo2O7FhVoM=; b=MK7Aqv1UCMHu4kFTNmT3wIBciZnHgv8giK53z5Rx25CAYqtsi2DVF0ZAuPypBgKxLv uDDaQPYC/TgmIq4rW3zhNmNv6bjYHABGZPUEZWAWyspb5omCmOhxvjKBHN+EIAxlG3Ci 8SYqcSiEtJjegdA0WMFMPc78+p5Qfgvse8mWzG9nM27eAb83BoyvRUMBPM1CqLbX4v68 lexXrkFv2/kpAOAkb0BAMXFJkjlDY+ylXVFit4qipxU3VUZ69hYRDtSEJlLbqQh6rrEx jOzkAFlNP9h6WbyOPy7JTGHkhQ6gCjCKybc9HY1Ym/156oLHy0bjX98OBjmCCCOxzQsC H3fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530zXz/gliCRuLz/Y5rBMdV1zkkX3dRHsUbdkIYuUcGkdFnNxmLh kkQBK1v8I1nTWhUJ0yvvx0j4JLi8D3WrUDVsq8aOZmddrMc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXPcyFK+0numvPOjNc5IPWuyoHJPwfgEsgNUTqCM3aKPGpZDYsFsEn2v+9XbaLwWZIHGQJzSuTt+11LmErtAM= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:6294:0:b0:368:c6f1:e9b2 with SMTP id z20-20020ab06294000000b00368c6f1e9b2mr33841341uao.58.1654619949475; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220607152519.GN15041@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:38:57 -0600 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000053c3c805e0de3a5b" Message-ID-Hash: 2LBYA5GRHINE77SBGJGVWCIF636DJXJD X-Message-ID-Hash: 2LBYA5GRHINE77SBGJGVWCIF636DJXJD X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000053c3c805e0de3a5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 9:03 AM Will Senn wrote: > Interesting crossover from Linux to Linux Distros... Debian's my > personal fave (in the form of Mint, MX, or even Ubuntu), mostly cuz apt > seems to just work (for me, ymmv) and rpm sucks :). However, all of > these run on the same kernel and generally provide the same userland > (core-utils, etc). But not the same binaries. I've run into a lot of issues trying to run a binary for Debian on red hat or vice Vera due to shared libraries not being completely compatible... kinda makes the whole system call argument moot since there is always significant version skew... Warner I constantly switch from Mac (Mojave) to FreeBSD to > Linux (Mint, usually, but occassionally opensuse) and other than minor > differences in switches, they are all reminiscent of v7, from a user > perspective, outside of GUIs. Except for ZFS, which will keep FreeBSD in > my environment until it's added to the Linux Kernel - is hell freezing > over yet? > > -w > > > > On 6/7/22 10:25 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 07, 2022 at 11:08:34AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:30 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > >>> The key is I think *competition*. Distributions were competing to > >>> attract a user base, and one of the ways they could do that was by > >>> improving the install experience. There were people who reviewed > >>> distributions based on which one had the better installer, and that > >>> helped users who were Windows refugees choose the ones that had the > >>> better installer. > >> My point is that this is something that varies from distro to distro; > >> it is therefore inaccurate to claim that "Linux solved it" since many > >> different distros that have widely varying installation processes > >> fall under the very large "Linux" umbrella. > > Yeah, there are a large number of distros but I'm willing to bet that > > Debian, RedHat and Ubuntu variants account for the vast majority of > > installs. > > > >>> There are three different things that's worth separating. One is a > >>> consistent kernel<->user space interface, this is what Linus Torvalds > >>> considers high priority when he says, "Thou shalt not break > >>> userspace". This is what allows pretty much all distributions to > >>> replace the kernel that was shipped with the distribution with the > >>> latest upstream kernel. And this is something that in general doesn't > >>> work with *BSD systems. > >> Eh? I feel like I can upgrade the kernel on the various BSDs > >> without binaries breaking pretty easily. Then again, there _have_ > >> been times when there were flag days that required rebuilding > >> the world; but surely externalities are more common here (e.g., > >> switching from one ISA to another). > > Try installing an OpenBSD kernel on FreeBSD, that's what we mean by > > compat. I'm more than willing to believe that you can pull head on > > the FreeBSD source tree and build & install it on FreeBSD. Much less > > willing to believe that that works Open/Free or Net/Free. > > > > With Linux, on pretty much any distro, you can pull Linus' tree and > > build and install it without drama. If you are running some ancient > > release you might have to update your toolchain but that's about it. > > Linus is super careful to not break the syscall table. It's extend > > only, which makes it a mess, but a binary compat mess. > > > >>> The second is application source-level compatibility, and this is what > >>> allows you to download some open source application, and recompile it > >>> on different Linux distributions, and it should Just Work. In > >>> practice this works for most Linux and *BSD users. > >> This, I think, is where things break down. Simply put, the way > >> people build applications has changed, and "source-level" > >> compatibility means compatibility with a bunch of third-party > >> libraries; in many ways the kernel interfaces matter much, much > >> less (many of which are defined by externally imposed standards > >> anyway). If a distro ships a too-old or too-new version of the > >> dependency, then the open source thing will often not build, and > >> for most end users, this is a distinction without a difference. > > Yes, you are correct, I've experienced that as well with sort of > > newer complex apps. > > --00000000000053c3c805e0de3a5b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 9:03 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting crossover from Linux to Linux Distr= os... Debian's my
personal fave (in the form of Mint, MX, or even Ubuntu), mostly cuz apt seems to just work (for me, ymmv) and rpm sucks :). However, all of
these run on the same kernel and generally provide the same userland
(core-utils, etc).

But not the same binaries. I've run into a lot of issues = trying to run a binary for Debian on red hat or vice Vera due to shared lib= raries not being completely compatible... kinda makes the whole system call= argument moot since there is always significant version skew...

Warner

=
I constantly switch from Mac (Mojave) to FreeBSD to
Linux (Mint, usually, but occassionally opensuse) and other than minor
differences in switches, they are all reminiscent of v7, from a user
perspective, outside of GUIs. Except for ZFS, which will keep FreeBSD in my environment until it's added to the Linux Kernel - is hell freezing =
over yet?

-w



On 6/7/22 10:25 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 07, 2022 at 11:08:34AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:30 AM Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu= > wrote:
>>> The key is I think *competition*.=C2=A0 Distributions were com= peting to
>>> attract a user base, and one of the ways they could do that wa= s by
>>> improving the install experience.=C2=A0 There were people who = reviewed
>>> distributions based on which one had the better installer, and= that
>>> helped users who were Windows refugees choose the ones that ha= d the
>>> better installer.
>> My point is that this is something that varies from distro to dist= ro;
>> it is therefore inaccurate to claim that "Linux solved it&quo= t; since many
>> different distros that have widely varying installation processes<= br> >> fall under the very large "Linux" umbrella.
> Yeah, there are a large number of distros but I'm willing to bet t= hat
> Debian, RedHat and Ubuntu variants account for the vast majority of > installs.
>
>>> There are three different things that's worth separating.= =C2=A0 One is a
>>> consistent kernel<->user space interface, this is what L= inus Torvalds
>>> considers high priority when he says, "Thou shalt not bre= ak
>>> userspace".=C2=A0 This is what allows pretty much all dis= tributions to
>>> replace the kernel that was shipped with the distribution with= the
>>> latest upstream kernel.=C2=A0 And this is something that in ge= neral doesn't
>>> work with *BSD systems.
>> Eh? I feel like I can upgrade the kernel on the various BSDs
>> without binaries breaking pretty easily. Then again, there _have_<= br> >> been times when there were flag days that required rebuilding
>> the world; but surely externalities are more common here (e.g., >> switching from one ISA to another).
> Try installing an OpenBSD kernel on FreeBSD, that's what we mean b= y
> compat.=C2=A0 I'm more than willing to believe that you can pull h= ead on
> the FreeBSD source tree and build & install it on FreeBSD.=C2=A0 M= uch less
> willing to believe that that works Open/Free or Net/Free.
>
> With Linux, on pretty much any distro, you can pull Linus' tree an= d
> build and install it without drama.=C2=A0 If you are running some anci= ent
> release you might have to update your toolchain but that's about i= t.
> Linus is super careful to not break the syscall table.=C2=A0 It's = extend
> only, which makes it a mess, but a binary compat mess.
>
>>> The second is application source-level compatibility, and this= is what
>>> allows you to download some open source application, and recom= pile it
>>> on different Linux distributions, and it should Just Work.=C2= =A0 In
>>> practice this works for most Linux and *BSD users.
>> This, I think, is where things break down. Simply put, the way
>> people build applications has changed, and "source-level"= ;
>> compatibility means compatibility with a bunch of third-party
>> libraries; in many ways the kernel interfaces matter much, much >> less (many of which are defined by externally imposed standards >> anyway). If a distro ships a too-old or too-new version of the
>> dependency, then the open source thing will often not build, and >> for most end users, this is a distinction without a difference. > Yes, you are correct, I've experienced that as well with sort of > newer complex apps.

--00000000000053c3c805e0de3a5b--