From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 25339 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2022 22:19:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Sep 2022 22:19:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF68E422B4; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 08:18:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f44.google.com (mail-vs1-f44.google.com [209.85.217.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B37B422B0 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 08:18:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f44.google.com with SMTP id c3so19775627vsc.6 for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 15:18:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=tA0QNQe5PToXluirWFQd8hmuBGQ0Yc8rKRVPeRhw86Y=; b=fhhfS/1S9YR4+3KjCzuwUqaxULTVym06NnQ0648UPsppx+ojR//KdFw8zDN8LcnyhJ va3mQi1CtcapRNTrevFSuqy7S8vKXt0aXqmozMOjERvkK0hdoGoJGVFml4aOPCn60mgl yIVHXlFdsSN9hOo8xQtY+ZptUhiUVLG4PlPgoLv9iNEBw3W7o60mzCkKdNY14bJaT7QR msMfUFhnNOhxUFj8wV4DsKu7S5U+U5wcQNJD7yQ+jjy8vUOA3QPSHtPWI7h8n++oZtz2 XSJtIeWlslnXhdHmNkoxRsgp9w7x3QcZiooYRINpaxCNoYj+bemEb/DD/Jm179EMn6jr qXkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=tA0QNQe5PToXluirWFQd8hmuBGQ0Yc8rKRVPeRhw86Y=; b=efGMQ9HSqPtTn9Nu+0Cr5NLiXLmCkIp6vCIySxWqfoKL7IBRZmmlm3I2kLJecblX3m 5DR9kLI3IA3MN2Xql0BH2apEwjcLcypKL1rehMR+hjq+pta7ZZ8gzmDebOZRPpZGEGvh dKP+hwh3IlDfJvXXP5AF/wgNsMAq6FjIedN6qgJIuCqNL3AevA5bkL6ISKhx+Kt530to L5TQuMYRRyrDAa83qPYvpoeydruEi/oft/8+ikTfNEqIX8yiuwODqb/qIwk5DQM/1PO3 RvPkf7/lmRMUt6Iu9qOZdMljNPYBpAWvhwHGOGTdCTdDJBdKF4MNa+CETT/pV41+Qr/o P78Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0IqYq9BSIb97S0ikvxzPwN8pg6YgmwCzFhYi0mgtWENAXhlwyj PGKgmJ0PmdDifMHnBmJSBn0TTkibOD8o0DkuBrLWeDYiekEM0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7+yUY+NiNf3Vt1vZ8A9W9VWQ1SrwsTRN6tY0MKgDG4ZIGyhBjbFUOB2ImZOXegtGlqYtFv+DuSmi/AJ/DEEUg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ad12:0:b0:398:3d57:33e0 with SMTP id t18-20020a67ad12000000b003983d5733e0mr1625170vsl.6.1662675473180; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2022 16:17:42 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4c03605e831cc5a" Message-ID-Hash: 2KGN67UVZNEITRJTXJYVTRFWHCW5VA4H X-Message-ID-Hash: 2KGN67UVZNEITRJTXJYVTRFWHCW5VA4H X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Re-implementations/Clean-Rooms et al. List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f4c03605e831cc5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 3:52 PM Clem Cole wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 12:51 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > >> Both Coherent and 4.4BSD have stuck out to me as examples of >> not-quite-so-clean-room implementations that did well enough (more than >> enough for BSD) and didn't die a fiery death in litigation (as much as USL >> tried...). > > BSDi/UCB *vs. *USL was a different kettle of fish altogether. As has > been discussed here extensively (and needs not to be repeated), that suit > was about *Trade Secrets and >>ideas<< that make up what we call UNIX.* > The real interesting thing about that case is that had USL/AT&T won, the > repercussions for the industry would have been way beyond just BSDi - *but > all of the UNIX clones* and many of us on this list who had been > "mentally contaminated" with AT&T's ideas (I still have my 'mental > contamination' button somewhere in my archives). > Yes. Indeed. It devolved to a copyright battle with the ultimate result being a preliminary ruling that 32V (and V6 and V7 likely) had no copyright protection because AT&T had distributed too many copies without the required (at the time) copyright notices... That preliminary ruling is what forced the settlement of the suit, and is the reason that 4.4BSD-lite had a bunch of files with AT&T copyrights on them with permission to redistribute liberally... These days, in open source cleanroom is rarely done except in extraordinary cases. It's easier to read the code and reimplement because copyright covers only the typing... Warner > --000000000000f4c03605e831cc5a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 3:52 PM Clem C= ole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
On T= hu, Sep 8, 2022 at 12:51 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Both Coherent and 4.4BSD have stuck out = to me as examples of not-quite-so-clean-room implementations that did well = enough (more than enough for BSD) and didn't die a fiery death in litig= ation (as much as USL tried...).=C2=A0
BSDi/UC= B vs. USL was a different kettle of fish altogether.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As = has been discussed here extensively (and needs not to be repeated), that su= it was about=C2=A0Trade Secrets and >>ideas<< = that make up what we call UNIX.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The real interesting th= ing about that case is that had USL/AT&T won, the repercussions for the= industry would have been way beyond just BSDi - but all of the UNIX = clones and many of us on this list who had been "mentally cont= aminated" with AT&T's ideas (I still have my 'mental conta= mination' button somewhere in my archives).

Yes. Indeed. It devolved to a co= pyright battle with the ultimate result being a preliminary ruling that 32V= (and V6 and V7 likely) had no copyright protection because AT&T had di= stributed too many copies without the required (at the time) copyright noti= ces...=C2=A0 That preliminary ruling is what forced the settlement of the s= uit, and is the reason that 4.4BSD-lite had a bunch of files with AT&T = copyrights on them with permission to redistribute liberally...
<= br>
These days, in open source cleanroom is rarely done except in= extraordinary cases. It's easier to read the code and reimplement beca= use copyright covers only the typing...

Warner
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