From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15794 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2023 14:57:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 20 Sep 2023 14:57:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01E341566; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 00:57:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B3E14111E for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 00:57:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-52f3ba561d9so2284537a12.1 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 07:57:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1695221835; x=1695826635; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e004pA8yfZQQ/OrUYHTUQ4blRpClOzn3rj6WGct42lg=; b=O9azXO7+JPgnCarw29opNaF8ObPGE3DI+eWlwgQBSXe9jm+vQmQwicNTNU/3V8Jokj 8WevxyRHS17jEAkBIpeua092dxiSYbYLEgiTJecqHmYpA88tfNWL+rJmkeQOx0iXlNR4 /HOxX8pHLH/6cl8RynkRn1+pNmuOf5eB+bXxgd7x+nGoyUJqprJNsFwBij+1z2bojytt 75r7pIIkYfAwKGRfyyRnrMCenmtJfoOzEACwi7BWV+QRHliao5V1oLa5qKOEtsa3A5CE wy6HOkrPyRLsoQD0mCNrkLjMAtU7XcS3MSQj6fcBEklFgLeQGc0njiLhTrm99pAzkzDR UQKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695221835; x=1695826635; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=e004pA8yfZQQ/OrUYHTUQ4blRpClOzn3rj6WGct42lg=; b=ZcQbSwqVMvC1oQn9/MiVAVvIh/HB5ob8uqS8O04ySVXwAkP4nck2EvSm0fxg9ErGZt 4sNjYEljPnx8VyqsiopIByob+CGlUGMCZZhAQbn2hae3zQp5HrYtxgPgyABukXzN/Dlr 9iRNLllNdnZGDwDZbfflP5bwh6qHJqOeMWRTTu8X/n977qF9pGuZz2tqhPlZK2lprx/u FrHivcCYbU1QlLkNiZhA1+P/8K/zi7b5ZYzrundu8iohvcscWWs3FGMImhHTYynvgKwq WLp55I/LActPRWItlJ+LhlGVg7bqS4Qylgi8odZyMq0SV55Oo8fhdr2kiQMjMBSIbtz0 oZ2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxs979zrhlW+mNS7/iHYf25DTDXExiZ0NgMKzDv8z5eHVglfIF0 7UOZg7gaSPDkK3v07SZahcRterr4bHXDHydzE4ea9n49819KawAyTmc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG8pdSY+amAHGRYTirv4mkwoVoSRByG/5gu3JQu98tKnio8yhBuBS/hRB3KDtCIQi/ipkJpedXeduhPD8paJBM= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ed03:0:b0:52a:38c3:1b4b with SMTP id j3-20020a50ed03000000b0052a38c31b4bmr4167714eds.15.1695221835506; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 07:57:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> <20230919233925.GB28844@mcvoy.com> <5RzxjSGC9j4riL9Kr7cVp4UwTY2SVNxyNxQNG5RCZLh874BzbGP9ZS5U7IErArwrvMm6Ii40GhHK7n009tpnToX78D-3MQSt9xx2XqDnKuc=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5RzxjSGC9j4riL9Kr7cVp4UwTY2SVNxyNxQNG5RCZLh874BzbGP9ZS5U7IErArwrvMm6Ii40GhHK7n009tpnToX78D-3MQSt9xx2XqDnKuc=@protonmail.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 15:57:01 +0100 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005239680605cb979a" Message-ID-Hash: 33Q2W2F74SQTXW5AR4E4WYZQURKIPOPX X-Message-ID-Hash: 33Q2W2F74SQTXW5AR4E4WYZQURKIPOPX X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Project Idea: The UNIX Programmer's Manual: Heritage Edition List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005239680605cb979a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 2:30 AM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > I'd start with groff. > > > > > > So I'm a little off topic but if people wanted to work on that, I'd be > > > up for that project. It's not as big as what you are saying but it's > > > pretty big, I think we just start with something, see if we can get > > > debian/ubuntu to pick it up, lather, rinse repeat. In fact if we > > > just get the groff project to pick up our stuff, all the distros will > > > get that eventually. > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > > > > > > That's an excellent point, the beauty of UNIX being a granular system is > that such an effort wouldn't need to be a "start at page 1 and finish at > page whatever", but could be done piecemeal. Groff would also be a great > candidate due to the preponderance of supporting secondary papers, like the > NROFF/TROFF manual, different macro definitions, etc. That does then get > into the prospect of the secondary papers too, likewise excellent > references to this day on a number of subjects that I personally would love > to have modernized versions of. > > > > Well if anyone catches wind of such a project kicking off in some way > elsewhere, know that I'm certainly interested in what I can contribute. > What my work towards this eventual goal will probably continue to look like > for now though is just doing my diff analysis of manual versions, as one of > my principle goals there was to identify the apparent last common ancestor > of Research, PWB, and BSD lineages, at least as far as documentation is > concerned. Common sense would just say research V7 but there are little > tidbits here and there between V6 and V7 that don't show up in other > places, just tiny little nuanced things for the most part. I haven't done > this part of the analysis at all but a causal glance at a 32V manual diffed > with a V7 manual reveals some changes that don't appear to be related to > the portability work. But I'm not going to comment on that further without > analysis to back it up, just some anecdotal observations at present. > > > > > Why (and when) did GNU drop the HISTORY section from its man pages? > > > > > > Adam > > > > > > Did GNU ever have a HISTORY section? I just plucked a couple books off > the shelf, I don't see HISTORY in the V10, 4.4BSD, or SVR4 books, so > probably a later invention in the BSD line that didn't get picked up by > other UNIX-likes? Looking at a few illumos manpages, they also don't appear > to have a HISTORY section. They appear to be there on macOS, probably as a > result of the FreeBSD origins of macOS user space. That said, I also > appreciate the HISTORY section, it's tipped me off to things to study that > I didn't know on a few occasions. > > > > - Matt G. > > Sorry for the double bump, don't want to lie, just found a few pages in > the 4.4BSD manual with a HISTORY section. Checked the same pages in V10, > SVR4, and 4.3BSD, no dice, so maybe 4.4BSD at the earliest? Of course I > could just grep this but where's the fun in that (and I'm not at a computer > I have a UNIX tree on right now...) > 4.4BSD almost certainly had some history. All the current BSDs have a HISTORY section for many of their pages. And we are busy borrowing each other's primary research for them... though it a man page, not a treatis on the evolution of signals since V7. Nor do the vast majority of command line flags have mention. Those that do are either 4BSD vs System V or XXXBSD vs Linux (and maybe a few FooBSD vs BarBSD, but those are rare). Warner > --0000000000005239680605cb979a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Sep 20, 2023, 2:30 AM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> > I'd start with groff.
> >
> > So I'm a little off topic but if people wanted to work on tha= t, I'd be
> > up for that project. It's not as big as what you are saying b= ut it's
> > pretty big, I think we just start with something, see if we can g= et
> > debian/ubuntu to pick it up, lather, rinse repeat. In fact if we<= br> > > just get the groff project to pick up our stuff, all the distros = will
> > get that eventually.
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm/boat
>
>
> That's an excellent point, the beauty of UNIX being a granular sys= tem is that such an effort wouldn't need to be a "start at page 1 = and finish at page whatever", but could be done piecemeal. Groff would= also be a great candidate due to the preponderance of supporting secondary= papers, like the NROFF/TROFF manual, different macro definitions, etc. Tha= t does then get into the prospect of the secondary papers too, likewise exc= ellent references to this day on a number of subjects that I personally wou= ld love to have modernized versions of.
>
> Well if anyone catches wind of such a project kicking off in some way = elsewhere, know that I'm certainly interested in what I can contribute.= What my work towards this eventual goal will probably continue to look lik= e for now though is just doing my diff analysis of manual versions, as one = of my principle goals there was to identify the apparent last common ancest= or of Research, PWB, and BSD lineages, at least as far as documentation is = concerned. Common sense would just say research V7 but there are little tid= bits here and there between V6 and V7 that don't show up in other place= s, just tiny little nuanced things for the most part. I haven't done th= is part of the analysis at all but a causal glance at a 32V manual diffed w= ith a V7 manual reveals some changes that don't appear to be related to= the portability work. But I'm not going to comment on that further wit= hout analysis to back it up, just some anecdotal observations at present. >
> > Why (and when) did GNU drop the HISTORY section from its man page= s?
> >
> > Adam
>
>
> Did GNU ever have a HISTORY section? I just plucked a couple books off= the shelf, I don't see HISTORY in the V10, 4.4BSD, or SVR4 books, so p= robably a later invention in the BSD line that didn't get picked up by = other UNIX-likes? Looking at a few illumos manpages, they also don't ap= pear to have a HISTORY section. They appear to be there on macOS, probably = as a result of the FreeBSD origins of macOS user space. That said, I also a= ppreciate the HISTORY section, it's tipped me off to things to study th= at I didn't know on a few occasions.
>
> - Matt G.

Sorry for the double bump, don't want to lie, just found a few pages in= the 4.4BSD manual with a HISTORY section.=C2=A0 Checked the same pages in = V10, SVR4, and 4.3BSD, no dice, so maybe 4.4BSD at the earliest?=C2=A0 Of c= ourse I could just grep this but where's the fun in that (and I'm n= ot at a computer I have a UNIX tree on right now...)
=

4.4BSD almost certainly= had some history. All the current BSDs have a HISTORY section for many of = their pages. And we are busy borrowing each other's primary research fo= r them... though it a man page, not a treatis on the evolution of signals s= ince V7. Nor do the vast majority of command line flags have mention. Those= that do are either 4BSD vs System V or XXXBSD vs Linux (and maybe a few Fo= oBSD vs BarBSD, but those are rare).

Warner
--0000000000005239680605cb979a--