From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id dbb154be for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 01:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3A8089B9C7; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:06:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED8494803; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:05:26 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="XXZD7xiq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BB2AC94803; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:05:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f174.google.com (mail-qt1-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5EAF947D6 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:05:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f174.google.com with SMTP id n7so19509941qtb.6 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2019 18:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eWgL1QQpMxclgTTG+reGxCcWbceGnVEfZ9p1Qzhljyk=; b=XXZD7xiqUqzn2RYgXAmGelt6HFtvbIzFaj3Y7MTz/oeBsk/y7Glul0GFIWzpskOKXU M2U1gfki1Hc3yOs6FG57TyT7XqfCqcYFuBrk6qAUrdk7H6qrgCl48hCywCfllTSwH4Bs e9XBYSeoNGn/JH1SQyycYToyXpRjY9JvP4JVTNSnufsFv/Y0mm1Lyd+XoyA2SUaKWVU0 wMRfauqXv/YXxD5DdKRjylnKbnEFIUKHhBpj7QKq4M3gxIIlkTw9FjbAevwOczLhi2+V 0+UBDuINZkjzds/5AL9lr5iDjtdz+z3nuJIzM9e3wgc6ShWSAvhdQC4GgV5DHJicHnaD j3Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eWgL1QQpMxclgTTG+reGxCcWbceGnVEfZ9p1Qzhljyk=; b=NVzWpg3u9Z/jf8V0O7lGUYlX9rmpyNSfLhOxEb8Z3k36MdIv2V0hKyTvthTlmbrEHD JibfNJ/iedzXDq6tzAbVTCNiqUiaaJ1pJYStAwd6v0A2lj9u/IsmbfhPworU6KG1+05b 6V5FsAiqR2+ONtlk6vFojriVIaGCM3IWviEjYIWtq+sH7+P2/PSQJeJcT4saLDG1lBfw WR0ZPvIbfUQhPOWK06kKIj4GLrE3tvYUaeyCnAf0A4xzkROn6T2JSVI1PBhOyurZUugQ c9DWhSEevYysgN4vK9C3gf8ax10z53QVRMBLL86OZ0oHY3XTif2OpjlBX1wmVhY9dN4v rOzw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrX/c9f8nL96beNJVMLeCsKvpEsOskeAAQq72GIOFQkwajFXXV 02BRCXSgunsP2s1d/Oq6lQU8vJCikFoZrAcy0cmmiXb0Ma8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqywjtk8Wn+/uwBYhh5yEqrQoUdV+f/NgFbeGieCLqa87DVf/LgpPWBg+n6JRARNfBLSK+J5GrwOmdCtZ08LazE= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3564:: with SMTP id z33mr28057276qtb.291.1569891922636; Mon, 30 Sep 2019 18:05:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 19:05:11 -0600 Message-ID: To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006288cd0593cef27e" Subject: Re: [TUHS] understand earliest hardware? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000006288cd0593cef27e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 4:00 PM wrote: > I read in the PDP-7 reference manual that Precision CRT Display Type 30 > and Precision Incremental Display Type 340 are the typical displays used > with the PDP-7, but aren't standard equipment. I read about the > Graphics-II scope. Was it the only display? I read it was used as a > second terminal and that it would pause per display full with a button > to continue. > According to the reconstructed kernel sources, it had both. I'm unsure about the button detail. > I assume this second terminal's keyboard was TTY model 33 or similar > since it was the standard equipment. Does anyone know? > I've no looked at this detail, but I think it had its own keyboard independent of a tty 33. We have the sources so we can look. They will be the final answer on this anyway. > Do you know if the PDP-7 or early edition Unixes have pen support for > that Graphics-II or similar displays? > Yes. > Clem has written that the PDP-7 had a disk from a PDP-9. Where is this > cited? > You can look at the simh simulator to find where this is described. We know there's one pdp-7 with the PDP-9 disk drive from the 18-bit service log that was printed in 1972 available from bitsavers.org. It is excerpted here: https://www.soemtron.org/downloads/decinfo/18bitservicelist1972.pdf for details. Serial number 34 was Ken's PDP-7. I have a blog entry on that here: https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html that describes things in some detail. > The ~1971 draft "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" says first version runs > on PDP-9 also. > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/McIlroy_v0/ > But I cannot find any other reference of running on PDP-9 at all. Was > this academic? > Private email from Ken earlier this year said that there were 2 PDP-9s and 3 PDP-15s at Bell Labs that ran pdp7 Unix at one time or another. There are other instances sprinkled through the early newsletters I've been reading lately, but they aren't greppable and I don't have the time to look at them all again (including a couple of cases where it was said that Ken brought things up on a PDP-9, which we know to be in error). > That draft calls the PDP-7 version the "first edition" but later the > PDP-11/20 is called the "first edition". When did the naming of first > edition get defined to not include the PDP-7 version? Or is it because > the early "0th" version was never released/shared outside? > It's the first version, but the 1st edition manual definitely describes the PDP-11/20 port. > Thompson interview > > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/OralHistory/transcripts/thompson.htm > mentions an "interim machine" and a "PDP-11 that had PDP-10 memory > management, KS-1." What is this interim machine? Is this a PDP-11 > without a disk (for a few months?) What is this PDP-11 > and KS-1? Maybe this is the PDP-11/20 with KS-11? > > Do we know what hardware was supported for the early editions? We don't > have all the kernel code and from a quick look from what is available I > didn't see specific hardware references. > We know that it was a 11/20, initially without an MMU, and later with a custom hacked MMU, which I think is the KS-11. Clem would know :) > The later ~1974 "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" paper does mention some > hardware at that time on the PDP-11/45 like a 201 dataset interface and > a Tektronix 611 storage-tube display on a satellite PDP-11/20. > PDP 11/45 support was added as part of the efforts for the 4th edition. bitsavers has a couple of interesting sets of notes from lectures at the time: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/ has the interesting bits (including the sources used to reconstruct the 1st edition kernel we have in TUHS in the kernel routine documentation). > When did a CRT with keyboard terminal like DEC vt01 (with Tektronix 611 > CRT display), LS ADM-3, Hazeltine 2000, VT01A display with keyboard > (what keyboard?) get supported? Any code to help find this? (The > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html does mention the > VT01A plys keyboard). > I'm unsure. I didn't research those details. Warner > Thanks, > > Jeremy C. Reed > > echo Ohl zl obbx uggc://errqzrqvn.arg/obbxf/csfrafr/ | \ > tr "Onoqrsuvxzabcefghl" "Babdefhikmnoprstuy" > --0000000000006288cd0593cef27e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 4:00 PM <<= a href=3D"mailto:reed@reedmedia.net">reed@reedmedia.net> wrote:
<= /div>
I read in the PDP-7 = reference manual that Precision CRT Display Type 30
and Precision Incremental Display Type 340 are the typical displays used with the PDP-7, but aren't standard equipment. I read about the
Graphics-II scope. Was it the only display? I read it was used as a
second terminal and that it would pause per display full with a button
to continue.

According to the reconstru= cted kernel sources, it had both. I'm unsure about the button detail.
=C2=A0
I assume this second terminal's keyboard was TTY model 33 or similar since it was the standard equipment. Does anyone know?

I've no looked at this detail, but I think it had its o= wn keyboard independent of a tty 33. We have the sources so we can look. Th= ey will be the final answer on this anyway.
=C2=A0
Do you know if the PDP-7 or early edition Unixes have pen support for
that Graphics-II or similar displays?

Y= es.
=C2=A0
Clem has written that the PDP-7 had a disk from a PDP-9. Where is this
cited?

You can look at the simh simulat= or to find where this is described. We know there's one pdp-7 with the = PDP-9 disk drive from the 18-bit service log that was printed in 1972 avail= able from bitsavers.org. It is excerpt= ed here:=C2=A0https://www.soemtron.org/downloads/decinfo/18bitservicel= ist1972.pdf=C2=A0for details. Serial number 34 was Ken's PDP-7. I h= ave a blog entry on that here:=C2=A0https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/0= 7/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html=C2=A0that describes things in some de= tail.
=C2=A0
The ~1971 draft "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" says first version= runs
on PDP-9 also.
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distribu= tions/Research/McIlroy_v0/
But I cannot find any other reference of running on PDP-9 at all. Was
this academic?

Private email from Ken e= arlier this year said that there were 2 PDP-9s and 3 PDP-15s at Bell Labs t= hat ran pdp7 Unix at one time or another. There are other instances sprinkl= ed through the early newsletters I've been reading lately, but they are= n't greppable and I don't have the time to look at them all again (= including a couple of cases where it was said that Ken brought things up on= a PDP-9, which we know to be in error).
=C2=A0
That draft calls the PDP-7 version the "first edition" but later = the
PDP-11/20 is called the "first edition". When did the naming of f= irst
edition get defined to not include the PDP-7 version? Or is it because
the early "0th" version was never released/shared outside?

It's the first version, but the 1st editi= on manual definitely describes the PDP-11/20 port.
=C2=A0
Thompson interview
https://www.tuhs.org/= Archive/Documentation/OralHistory/transcripts/thompson.htm
mentions an "interim machine" and a "PDP-11 that had PDP-10 = memory
management, KS-1."=C2=A0 What is this interim machine? Is this a PDP-1= 1
without a disk (for a few months?) What is this PDP-11
and KS-1?=C2=A0 Maybe this is the PDP-11/20 with KS-11?

Do we know what hardware was supported for the early editions? We don't=
have all the kernel code and from a quick look from what is available I didn't see specific hardware references.

We know that it was a 11/20, initially without an MMU, and later with= a custom hacked MMU, which I think is the KS-11. Clem would know :)
<= div>=C2=A0
The later ~1974 "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" paper does mention= some
hardware at that time on the PDP-11/45 like a 201 dataset interface and a Tektronix 611 storage-tube display on a satellite PDP-11/20.

PDP 11/45 support was added as part of the efforts = for the 4th edition. bitsavers has a couple of interesting sets of notes fr= om lectures at the time:=C2=A0http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/=C2=A0has the interesting= bits (including the sources used to reconstruct the 1st edition kernel we = have in TUHS in the kernel routine documentation).
=C2=A0
When did a CRT with keyboard terminal like DEC vt01 (with Tektronix 611 CRT display), LS ADM-3, Hazeltine 2000, VT01A display with keyboard
(what keyboard?) get supported?=C2=A0 Any code to help find this?=C2=A0 (Th= e
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html= does mention the
VT01A plys keyboard).

I'm unsure. I= didn't research those details.

Warner
=C2=A0
Thanks,

Jeremy C. Reed

echo Ohl zl obbx uggc://errqzrqvn.arg/obbxf/csfrafr/ | \
=C2=A0tr "Onoqrsuvxzabcefghl" "Babdefhikmnoprstuy"
--0000000000006288cd0593cef27e--