From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31507 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2023 00:39:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Feb 2023 00:39:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFF743270; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 10:39:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C9F04326F for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 10:39:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id o15so9465743edr.13 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:39:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ROLTyXhDJ7SX0ftXkq4qtGsALl6ls1Sgw6aKQkJnxuE=; b=CvVIXVVJv5n9LAEWg72KGPRnt45N/bzS81d61cmH6LmmMDo6OcgkdY6XlJLJDqVifT xpYMYEm1HvpMaKgWSDWov/FlTGKWm+hPpbTH+Ls2TFfvEDWpOghtDMOQncfhjAJgQ5BJ xtE/6T+ptcz7mOwlRLVAmAHsqgmcNyRxJmiSy9w79JQWcL/Kx/rpvKp/J5kxzlIkxDxk kyJrpjOGtAzyfXaD0ym2ftM/w995qCnhY/6ScuBazaK1xfRVaA2ACxN7XQQWtFr0pqMm ROp6N3ZjrDdTjsfOGMKFZR9epudCheRk6km9o9SmvYRrC12SLmbNSiR+atyQwK793Phy qfCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ROLTyXhDJ7SX0ftXkq4qtGsALl6ls1Sgw6aKQkJnxuE=; b=PH1TcXa1cQt6VNznNsBL59umzLZ60zO41uM0SebJ/4/0OpeV11sDGkD09xpzM82Utf GsTWaMZUrCh4vnIg4mdVO273GAH3tYMlVQG9rdK1jYkprRyk+u/UAAFyoFsIOv4NvL2Z GSA3Xw2zzAJDRyKVOgy0W8VjwYQxYSEGsY/5XA3Y+yiaEeImOHf8q81ngv/R6Qx4Sfpt OYMy0hu6y26YfaqX2GR9Ec7fNh8z3usEvK7O8nJTSRyfGEQYBjj7hUyM5xfgLTvX5mrU URAOkAb4JSLfoAb1f2tTqMgSk7LWJkaoN+xaku7r9lmtUYSa0B3sP/c5FOfFWkzBpJjO LGSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXbwnNj2BbMjwnSLB0IVXhl10AXMK68YLdb+7TY8zR3vPyXIGea OPBYtCAI6mbDOFP1icHGb63GabKIAYcSwkPW9DD5qa0tuwCAKQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+ui1kTIqSNoHminYjk7GoJyV5AXHEQcBL4SvFpuawt006uyAkk89GXxubbcpeoUns1BGTR4hjwno7e2UC8oHk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:e217:b0:8b1:38d6:9853 with SMTP id gf23-20020a170906e21700b008b138d69853mr12956022ejb.2.1677371964133; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:39:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 17:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000014249205f58f988c" Message-ID-Hash: ZERLSXHRJSAHP7OB2F3JKSHCJAROHMBH X-Message-ID-Hash: ZERLSXHRJSAHP7OB2F3JKSHCJAROHMBH X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000014249205f58f988c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 2:31 PM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > I think discussion of early Linux is in scope for this list, after all > that is 30 years ago. Warren, if that is a mis-assumption please slap my > wrist. > > Following on from the recent discussion of early workstations and > windowing systems, I=E2=80=99m wondering about early windowing on Linux. = I only > discovered Linux in the later nineties (Red Hat 4.x I think), and by that > time Linux already seemed to have settled on Xfree86. At that time svgali= b > was still around but already abandoned. > > By 1993 even student class PC hardware already outperformed the > workstations of the early/mid eighties, memory was much more abundant and > pixels were no longer bits but bytes (making drawing easier). Also, early > Linux was (I think) more local machine oriented, not LAN oriented. Maybe = a > different system than X would have made sense. > > In short, I could imagine a frame buffer device and a compositor for > top-level windows (a trail that had been pioneered by Oriel half a decade > before), a declarative widget set inspired by the contemporary early > browsers and the earlier NeWS, etc. Yet nothing like that happened as far > as I know. I vaguely recall an OS from the late 90=E2=80=99s that mixed L= inux with > a partly in-kernel GUI called =E2=80=9CBerlin=E2=80=9D or something like = that, but I cannot > find any trace of that today, so maybe I misremember. > > So here are a few things that I am interested in and folks on this list > might remember: > > - were there any window systems popular on early Linux other than X? No. Mgr was available but harder to setup than X. This is from like 0.98pl5 or so days, so very early on... - was there any discussion of alternatives to X? > Discussions yes. But not much more than talk. There were vgalib apps that ran graphics on the console, but I never used them. - was there any discussion of what kernel support for graphics was > appropriate? > Some. But mostly it was to switch graphics modes between x11 and console apps. Very little beyond that. By the time Linux arrived, x11 had already won in the workstation space, so the quick push was to get x11 going. It wasn't long before everything was XFree86 (or XFree98 if you were in Japan). Warner > --00000000000014249205f58f988c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 2:31 PM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:

I think discussion of early Linux is in scope for this list, after all that= is 30 years ago. Warren, if that is a mis-assumption please slap my wrist.=

Following on from the recent discussion of early workstations and windowing= systems, I=E2=80=99m wondering about early windowing on Linux. I only disc= overed Linux in the later nineties (Red Hat 4.x I think), and by that time = Linux already seemed to have settled on Xfree86. At that time svgalib was s= till around but already abandoned.

By 1993 even student class PC hardware already outperformed the workstation= s of the early/mid eighties, memory was much more abundant and pixels were = no longer bits but bytes (making drawing easier). Also, early Linux was (I = think) more local machine oriented, not LAN oriented. Maybe a different sys= tem than X would have made sense.

In short, I could imagine a frame buffer device and a compositor for top-le= vel windows (a trail that had been pioneered by Oriel half a decade before)= , a declarative widget set inspired by the contemporary early browsers and = the earlier NeWS, etc. Yet nothing like that happened as far as I know. I v= aguely recall an OS from the late 90=E2=80=99s that mixed Linux with a part= ly in-kernel GUI called =E2=80=9CBerlin=E2=80=9D or something like that, bu= t I cannot find any trace of that today, so maybe I misremember.

So here are a few things that I am interested in and folks on this list mig= ht remember:

- were there any window systems popular on early Linux other than X?

No. Mgr was= available but harder to setup than X. This is from like 0.98pl5 or so days= , so very early on...

- was there any discussion of alternatives to X?

Discussions yes. But not mu= ch more than talk.

There= were vgalib apps that ran graphics on the console, but I never used them.<= /div>

- was there any discussion of what kernel support for graphics was appropri= ate?

Some. But mostly it was to switch graphics modes between x11 and consol= e apps. Very little beyond that.=C2=A0

By the time Linux arrived, x11 had already won in the workst= ation space, so the quick push was to get x11 going. It wasn't long bef= ore everything was XFree86 (or XFree98 if you were in Japan).

Warner=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
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