From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8426 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2021 23:23:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2021 23:23:23 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F3AC09C7AC; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:23:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2A19C6CF; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:23:02 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="Oiq1UIbI"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9B6F19C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:23:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10AF69C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:23:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id t63so12656869qkc.1 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:23:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8xXFd55Zn5uLiLSRRQ7316n1xclVam4keG4q313O5fA=; b=Oiq1UIbItA23nnd5+78CMw/8W/XFcNaJC2N0AdJQYdNG+FtjoZNeGHrXr1xyHZqGQ2 bk4k/nVHWjUs8W1K2cTF0NxaXylpAYaexV45Rf7/svcEo4mSnxunQTtO9h9lmP+Ntd4G 4yfqo/7JjpHB0FuF1zYVqN19KHwvPPyCYJkbTJTcUB0szVjhv6C2DLzfAOzLH0H8eVxX WIF7/hv/i+0OyRUZw4icPIKgSUfZwuRPC7/XKjTP6Wa1QJGqIGC9yVfA7F/Wd0qPWPFz IDeTZ37lSEdipGvTDClcBXMaZn3Zjbop35mPwrIPMwsDJQZ+ZpvhbFtT4+P6YU0ym/L1 DvIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8xXFd55Zn5uLiLSRRQ7316n1xclVam4keG4q313O5fA=; b=J2jTlpsHom9JcjCQlMLDepoX0+D5WMCUwD2Tn0DcsFPYBEVKKODsojpiloH8MwFub1 T2k2ZrPSgkRe5hdtVijG2CZh3htSLptDc4Mli1j5xriGy2CxO9TDcF2TN7gcWPPjj6ml MLtAwohPgSSH6BTbeDIxxvfT2fTOya+riBnBrYZFMsMfYC17gKtAiZlHEt46cJpr5r/7 ch63sF8YkRF4UKso3XaleieqarpSKwnMElBaG3f8V2iuYOJqqp6xLDL5OL9fN/Eh/Puk XIFCcGQL7+EsfWrdkD8wtevBaXjDQdY3aw5LjMEAkYzyJ+KwFIKTGgrgL9cR7RnVwjxU dPdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332/zcahKtS9vDnq2Ukrtp5JFO0FkgGURphiJ85Ou/z/EC/BldL +74M3uA/o64wsb9kc0EkyunP7HB3Bp2HOt6TjVsLxVh16A6aaA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6Lk2GjWn2DGWj8PjvJ+9HazoziyLkc59lxTci1uMqerQMnCsDf6YJN/R0oVoZ2U77Ej9rYhhP/mJzAIYwWDU= X-Received: by 2002:a37:ad1:: with SMTP id 200mr10251923qkk.195.1612048980073; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:23:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210130231750.GQ4227@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20210130231750.GQ4227@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:22:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1709905ba2666d2" Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d1709905ba2666d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:19 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 10:11:19AM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long > > > time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good as > > > Windows and maybe better. > > > > FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing > > (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into > > serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn't > > make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. > > Um, my mother could install any Linux system today and 10-20 years ago. > There is not the slightest chance that she could install FreeBSD. > I find that hard to believe. The defaults just work on the vast majority of systems, even if the interface is text-based and not a fancy GUI... > > The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it. > > Linux installers start in X. No "select it" required. > Yea. Once upon a time, this was super dangerous. These days it's kinda required. > > > FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. > > > > You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? > > Yup. If FreeBSD wants anyone to use it, fix that installer. 99.99% > of people would give up after seeing that, you'd never get them to > userland. > No argument there... Part of the problem is that, up until relatively lately, the whole X experience sucked really badly on FreeBSD. Now that it doesn't suck, it's time for a re-evaluation... > > > They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end user > > > system, > > > > There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. > > But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with your > > underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros > > have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I > > try, the interface has changed. > > Try xubuntu, that's what I use. Pretty light weight UI but all the > parts are there and it doesn't change much. > But yet it's not stuck? Warner --000000000000d1709905ba2666d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:19 PM Larry= McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= /div>
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021= at 10:11:19AM +1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases.=C2=A0 = A long
> > time ago.=C2=A0 Now their install is painless, it's every bit= as good as
> > Windows and maybe better.
>
> FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally con= fusing
> (that's what you were talking about, right?).=C2=A0 And I've r= un into
> serious problems with various Linux installations too.=C2=A0 That does= n't
> make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it.

Um, my mother could install any Linux system today and 10-20 years ago.
There is not the slightest chance that she could install FreeBSD.

I find that hard to believe. The defaults just w= ork on the vast majority of systems, even if the interface is text-based an= d not a fancy GUI...
=C2=A0
> The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it.

Linux installers start in X.=C2=A0 No "select it" required.

Yea. Once upon a=C2=A0 time, this was super = dangerous. These days it's kinda required.
=C2=A0
> > FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. >
> You're still talking about the installer, aren't you?=C2=A0
Yup.=C2=A0 If FreeBSD wants anyone to use it, fix that installer.=C2=A0 99.= 99%
of people would give up after seeing that, you'd never get them to
userland.

No argument there...=C2=A0 Pa= rt of the problem is that, up until relatively lately, the whole X experien= ce sucked really badly on FreeBSD. Now that it doesn't suck, it's t= ime for a re-evaluation...
=C2=A0
> > They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not a= n end user
> > system,
>
> There I have to agree with you.=C2=A0 A little TLC would go a long way= .
> But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI wi= th your
> underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros<= br> > have.=C2=A0 One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every = time I
> try, the interface has changed.

Try xubuntu, that's what I use.=C2=A0 Pretty light weight UI but all th= e
parts are there and it doesn't change much.

But yet it's not stuck?

Warner=C2=A0<= /div>
--000000000000d1709905ba2666d2--