From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 91b152f5 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 18:02:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 513F193D6F; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:02:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FDF93D1B; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:02:09 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="AHpxr9Ui"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CAFB093D1B; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:02:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f48.google.com (mail-io1-f48.google.com [209.85.166.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4881B93D09 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:02:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f48.google.com with SMTP id d15so1573960iog.3 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:02:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7msutoeHJAy05xS1l22v/5j53zISqsNvaaOvN5B146A=; b=AHpxr9UidqyJ165cJyhUl/Sa62Gjr/cCR4cIJxW/07RNzog1f9LbMHRpQgVRQSek+M 2GFm9NzFA1x0yFYYbV3Wa+ftVYDHQ3ugo2deredg0KTk5qzI3wVqjSxG7h3oPfLWQ88C I0nzv9SKbcbGpGiOvON2WADyDAQtrPfyrAC2qT/Vh7q2E9TXLTNLb7v2NplWkDsOqZNz MivxIXiIMfUE6Q/14naRBZBUd/4OzHEAbvTJOXOf8jGkctMfXtgbMXGkp28K6pL88ayI j9iOTu/zXJgGIIqJquU3NN4HzimsHKsFt9bBX3/bl5QUAyeBbNQ1A1RIKMb/3DSAJAjt ZKyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7msutoeHJAy05xS1l22v/5j53zISqsNvaaOvN5B146A=; b=ir5UnXXvucM+oaPkoCjOYvHiK0WeAGakFkEKYmtPcyUTrvyBbqKMGY/lZL2RJNfwMh v8iUGjWPxLMX/fAI9K/xQR85UrioIaUvR7YBszGQNGQGb+dHX4VnXE3vELi9LfNcjw31 29UKEKnv6B6/FnLL7uSZvRdjrWECtefHKDeV/yl60nk3Lr9O9LiwM4wOMZ1YAPBYbA4w YrmFVwtQbdNwCLMfEUeGNQQDlgBhB5cNmK7qBw3/5uiJQLo878C1PfkeZTbiTE1+unya 4J836UqYiQYB8qRm8N+UDO23u7xbON8tOKgx3a/trJEbkLaqxRLS6lO97rFa8P8wjm3s f5hg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUsouOZme8b6uZ5Wn1K4G9rJCKCmSPZ4CciIhXrn6Ezdv/fN8+o w6Xv/2Shlm4ARpgNEC8cshX39B5Mjuo4wryZ4TI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz4Xb0bDGPu7eOACFQ1uXna0ZauXsvUcQwsaHW+KCwo5G2tVvElrxSFP+0A9WKICFRz9C8W5RXa6zOgZHzcaR4= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:da0d:: with SMTP id x13mr19135798ioj.123.1582135325666; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:02:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002171520.01HFKqKi026749@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <4d252035b323b7583c5760c952d1982c@firemail.de> <202002171839.01HId8FT1358073@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202002180017.01I0HI0I1415945@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20200219044444.GO30841@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20200219044444.GO30841@mcvoy.com> From: Earl Baugh Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:01:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012b086059ef19666" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man Macro Package and pdfmark X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000012b086059ef19666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" What was more frustrating to Sun users was that there WAS a compiler included in Sun OS, but it went away with Solaris. I saw a noticeable change in code available in binary form only after that. At least until the GNU stuff got stable enough to use... (I was a customer of MIke's when he first start Cygnus for support of the GNU compilers... I was working in a secured facility and multiple times I spoke with him on the phone typing in patches by hand -- as he relayed them -- because of the time and hassle it took to get a tape in with the patch...) Earl On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:45 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:22:56PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote: > > At the times I referred to the lack of freely available AT&T source code > > was extremely limiting in how people viewed the availability of such > > "add-on" tools for Unix -- including the C compiler! > > This wasn't just an AT&T thing, Sun and SGI and everyone charged for their > C compiler. I sort of get it, writing a good compiler is up there with > writing a good kernel in effort, not quite the same, but probably the > 2nd hardest thing to do. So the compiler people cost a lot, companies > wanted to get that cost back. > > It was stupid. Having a free compiler meant that more people would > write apps for your platform. It should have been a loss leader. > > > > For folks running binary only systems from Masscomp/Sun/DEC/HP/IBM and > the > > > like, it is possible it was different. > > > > It was _very_ different. > > > > If you weren't out in the trenches of end-user Unix-based systems at the > > time it may not have been as obvious as to just how restrictive it was > > to have proprietary fee-based licensing of such add-on software. Most > > end-users couldn't even pay their vendors for ditroff -- their vendors > > didn't want to have to license it from AT&T, even when they had > > advocates inside the companies (e.g. I did some work supporting software > > for a couple such vendors and was never able to convince them). Some, > > as you mention, were all-in, but it wasn't until UNIX System V Release 4 > > became more widely available that systems based on it were more likely > > to have ditroff, and sometimes (though much more rarely) the "new" dpost > > post-processor was also included. I don't know if there were different > > licensing terms for SysVr4 or not. Don't get me started on how hard it > > also was to get some end users to buy a C compiler too. > > Yep, lived through this as well. I fought with Sun to make more stuff > free for developers, it just didn't make sense to not do that but the > powers that were didn't get it. > > One thing that Sun did do, probably in spite of itself, was fund > Michael Tiemann's work on C++. He worked out some deal that that > work would be open source and he pretty much made GNU C++ work > for some definition of work (C++ is a mess). > > --00000000000012b086059ef19666 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What was more frustrating to Sun users was that there= WAS a compiler included in Sun OS,
but it went away with Solaris= .=C2=A0 I saw a noticeable change in code available in binary form only aft= er that.
At least until the GNU stuff got stable enough to use...=

(I was a customer of MIke's when he first sta= rt Cygnus for support of the GNU compilers...
I was working in a = secured facility and multiple times I spoke with him on the phone typing in= patches
by hand -- as he relayed them -- because of the time and= hassle it took to get a tape in with the patch...)

Earl


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:45 PM Larry McVoy= <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12= :22:56PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> At the times I referred to the lack of freely available AT&T sourc= e code
> was extremely limiting in how people viewed the availability of such > "add-on" tools for Unix -- including the C compiler!=C2=A0 <= br>
This wasn't just an AT&T thing, Sun and SGI and everyone charged fo= r their
C compiler.=C2=A0 I sort of get it, writing a good compiler is up there wit= h
writing a good kernel in effort, not quite the same, but probably the
2nd hardest thing to do.=C2=A0 So the compiler people cost a lot, companies=
wanted to get that cost back.

It was stupid.=C2=A0 Having a free compiler meant that more people would write apps for your platform.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It should have been a loss leader= .

> > For folks running binary only systems from Masscomp/Sun/DEC/HP/IB= M and the
> > like, it is possible it was different.
>
> It was _very_ different.
>
> If you weren't out in the trenches of end-user Unix-based systems = at the
> time it may not have been as obvious as to just how restrictive it was=
> to have proprietary fee-based licensing of such add-on software.=C2=A0= Most
> end-users couldn't even pay their vendors for ditroff -- their ven= dors
> didn't want to have to license it from AT&T, even when they ha= d
> advocates inside the companies (e.g. I did some work supporting softwa= re
> for a couple such vendors and was never able to convince them).=C2=A0 = Some,
> as you mention, were all-in, but it wasn't until UNIX System V Rel= ease 4
> became more widely available that systems based on it were more likely=
> to have ditroff, and sometimes (though much more rarely) the "new= " dpost
> post-processor was also included.=C2=A0 I don't know if there were= different
> licensing terms for SysVr4 or not.=C2=A0 Don't get me started on h= ow hard it
> also was to get some end users to buy a C compiler too.

Yep, lived through this as well.=C2=A0 I fought with Sun to make more stuff=
free for developers, it just didn't make sense to not do that but the powers that were didn't get it.

One thing that Sun did do, probably in spite of itself, was fund
Michael Tiemann's work on C++.=C2=A0 He worked out some deal that that<= br> work would be open source and he pretty much made GNU C++ work
for some definition of work (C++ is a mess).

--00000000000012b086059ef19666--