From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6345 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2022 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Dec 2022 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4A341C3F; Sun, 18 Dec 2022 04:16:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com (mail-vs1-f42.google.com [209.85.217.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D692D41C0C for ; Sun, 18 Dec 2022 04:16:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id 3so5235816vsq.7 for ; Sat, 17 Dec 2022 10:16:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=65n6p6orkbAKUtaI8yDHFcUCTQYlqch2jd6Ef16CZMo=; b=h4ahkEeSoKBZujtIbgWfqa8p128dtuVVGi0a82ooqQtWp+Q9R+mz3DNMiTElcx08uC ZrxlmOJycFtdSjA7u/Z9HPp5sotiuh5jiqFgKMB0szn0lrv6jMsmzRSReVLC3HAZRUYi ZMs9OnqOV863e+H5o1v4IQpd+L0If0NxDla5qtpuSqKzLhCitg0F1mteQoLsVvwbdI0+ Sz2JLfLgNAngMBzTWilYdVCcs90JBv7/1DahKyTDRwv1mCIIM1J3bODbgPMCEafed1f5 yWTO6PccwjEO7LWu83i5m17OPlZoyB53UEPOv4K/m0zWRas8JLegkVLJfFy5mPUpuVO8 q62w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=65n6p6orkbAKUtaI8yDHFcUCTQYlqch2jd6Ef16CZMo=; b=htJ/TJj4jUBEftzxlhFduRDKWNkGvwHyGXSZqvHpn26DbLWIeP1LCa6a2zRZgt9g2M LGBP95PdH+Rz9uMKsg37y/u3v1cb0NailXzLUa+dx8+eC0AWhjiO4zDTWt1M1kwWjbaW bHOTUKvf2hzqez3TU1EJaek9b6QPqLdPzxiA0GSCdmLAedcxZY9ehtZgQobEhIdohReM c7RqowYa+WO3wawHqxnFpRJtE+9mB2K4MUxr4MJ6hUrFAEskIuqyf3z6kpVZYS2yVMCa fci/9XIELn9WGYegD4IC7l0kyIgLeMNxLD/T3JLcGhFxA1W6wohjkvfcsTvOH9f+H/aD Jm/g== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmo2m2X2YCx1Nm+1rJQYctmJ/2zsjR8LtXVIh6nGMWypkyf12tw jkamDqZ1Eys+hId8RS9fNMUWQ5HZTfznYFGW2y1TGA9g X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf45/pgAwzegJwO5d2eOtLdU/wBgeAKKBWhimZ9oyoj4T1tHz4HAgtvwAx+xvl/IYQclIU+j7wHhT4ml470SUho= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:32cf:b0:3b5:169a:4aaa with SMTP id o15-20020a05610232cf00b003b5169a4aaamr2415718vss.59.1671300922747; Sat, 17 Dec 2022 10:15:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Lyon Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 10:15:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d0324705f00a119e" Message-ID-Hash: FGVEAQEFYN62JRYU2TLJW3KJXIA5DBSW X-Message-ID-Hash: FGVEAQEFYN62JRYU2TLJW3KJXIA5DBSW X-MailFrom: pugs78@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Douglas McIlroy , TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: origin of null-terminated strings List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d0324705f00a119e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Clem doesn't mention CP-67/CMS, which IBM kept trying to kill in favor of CMS. >From Melinda Varian's amazing history of VM, I gleaned these factoids: CP-67 - 8 sites by May '68 Feb of 68 - IBM decommits from TSS Apr 69 - IBM rescinds decommit of TSS CP-67 - 44 sites by 1970, ~10 internal to IBM May 71 - TSS finally decommitted So TSS was a rocky road, while CP&VM were simple and just worked. On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:13 AM Clem Cole wrote: > Given the number of ex-MTS (Bill Joy and Ted Kowalski, to name two) and > TSS hackers that were also later to be UNIX hackers after their original > introduction to system programming as undergrads. I will keep this reply > in TUHS, although it could be argued that it belongs in COFF. > > Note good sources for even more of the background of the history politics > at both IBM & GE can be found in Haigh and Ceruzzi's book: "A New History > of Modern Computing > " - > which I have previously mentioned as it is a beautiful read. > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 5:27 PM Douglas McIlroy < > douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> IBM revealed Gerrit Blaauw's skunk-works project, the 360/67, >> but by then the die had been cast. Michigan bought one and built a >> nice time-sharing system that was running well before Multics. >> > All true, but a few details are glossed over, and thus, this could be > misinterpreted - so I'm going to add those as one of the people. > > TSS and the /67 was IBM's answer to Multics, as Doug mentions. Note that the > /67 could run as a model /65, which as I understand it, most of the ones > IBM sold did. > > At the time, IBM offered the /67 to Universities at a substantial discount > (I believe even less than the /65). Thus, several schools bought them with > Michigan, CMU, Cornell, and Princeton that I am aware of; but I suspect > there were others. > > TSS was late, and the first releases could have been more stable. > Cornell and Princeton chose to run their systems as /65 using the original > IBM OS. CMU and Michigan both received copies of TSS with their systems. > Michigan would do a substantial rewrite, which was different enough that > became the new system MTS. CMU did a great deal of bug fixing, which went > back to IBM, and they chose to run TSS. [I believe that CMU runs OS/360 by > data and TSS at night until they felt they could trust it to not crash]. > Nominally, TSS and MTS should share programs, and with some work, both > could import source programs from OS/360 [My first paid programming job was > helping to rewrite York/APL from OS/360 to run on TSS]. So the compilers > and many tools for all three were common. > > MTS and TSS used the same file system structure, or it was close enough > that tools were shared. I don't know if OS/360 could read TSS disk packs - > I would have suspected, although the common media of the day was 1/2" mag > tape. > > This leads to a UNIX legacy that ... Ted's fsck(8) - which purists know > as a different name in the first version - was modeled after the disk > scavenger program from TSS and MTS. icheck/ncheck et al. seem pretty > primitive if you had used to see the other as a system programmer first. > Also, a big reason why all the errors were originally in uppercase was the > IBM program had done it. In many ways, neither Ted nor I knew any better > at the time. > > Clem > > > > --000000000000d0324705f00a119e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Clem doesn't mention CP-67/CMS, which IBM kept trying = to kill in favor of CMS.
From Melinda Varian's amazing history of V= M, I gleaned these factoids:
CP-67 - 8 sites by May '68
=
Feb of 68 - IBM decommits from TSS
Apr 69 - IBM rescinds dec= ommit of TSS
CP-67 - 44 sites by 1970, ~10 internal to IBM
<= div>May 71 - TSS finally decommitted

So TSS was a = rocky road, while CP&VM=C2=A0were simple and just worked.


On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:13 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Given the number of ex-MTS (Bill Joy and Ted Kowalski, to name two) and TS= S hackers that were also later to be UNIX hackers after their original intr= oduction to system programming as undergrads.=C2=A0 I will keep this reply = in TUHS, although it could be argued that it belongs in COFF.

<= /div>
Note good sources for even more of the background of the history po= litics at both IBM & GE can be found in Haigh and Ceruzzi's book: &= quot;A New History of Modern C= omputing" - which I have previously mentioned as it is a beautiful= read.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 5:27 PM Douglas= McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
IBM reveal= ed Gerrit Blaauw's skunk-works project, the 360/67,
but by then the die had been cast. Michigan bought one and built a
nice time-sharing system that was running well before Multics.
All true, but a few details are glossed=C2=A0over, and = thus, this could be misinterpreted - so I'm going to add those as one o= f the people.

TSS and the /6= 7 was IBM's answer to Multics, as Doug mentions.=C2=A0 Note that the /67 could run a= s a model /65, which as I understand it, most of the ones IB= M sold did.=C2=A0

At the time, IBM = offered the /67 to Universities at a substantial=C2=A0discount (I believe e= ven less than the /65).=C2=A0 Thus, several schools bought them with Michig= an, CMU, Cornell, and Princeton that I am aware of; but I suspect there wer= e others.

TSS was late, and the first releases could h= ave been more stable.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Cornell and Princeton chose to run their= =C2=A0systems as /65 using the original IBM OS.=C2=A0 CMU and Michigan both= received copies of TSS with their systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michigan would do a= substantial rewrite, which was different enough that became=C2=A0the new s= ystem MTS.=C2=A0 =C2=A0CMU did a great deal of bug fixing, which went back = to IBM, and they chose to run TSS.=C2=A0 [I believe that CMU runs=C2=A0OS/3= 60 by data and TSS at night until they felt they=C2=A0could trust it to not= crash].=C2=A0 Nominally, TSS and MTS should share programs, and with some = work, both could import source programs from OS/360 [My first paid programm= ing job was helping to rewrite York/APL from OS/360 to run on TSS].=C2=A0 S= o the compilers and many tools for all three were common.

MTS and TSS used the same file system structure, or it was close enou= gh that tools were shared.=C2=A0 I don't know if OS/360 could read TSS = disk packs - I would have suspected, although the common media of the day w= as 1/2" mag tape.

This leads to a UNIX legacy tha= t ...=C2=A0 Ted's fsck(8) - which purists know as a different name in t= he first version -=C2=A0 was modeled after the disk scavenger=C2=A0program = from TSS and MTS.=C2=A0 =C2=A0icheck/ncheck et al. seem pretty primitive if= you had used to see=C2=A0the other as a system programmer first.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Also, a big reason why all the errors were originally in uppercase was t= he IBM program had done it.=C2=A0 In many ways, neither Ted nor I knew any = better at the time.

Clem


<= /span>

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