From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E65329607 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 17:25:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CCA43F59; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 02:25:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA30543F58 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 02:25:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3cf880d90bdso717725ab.3 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 08:25:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1737217520; x=1737822320; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qJI4CP4Q5Ljw2GovFHT8CQxcvUEhfdOQw9Eu+q1GfT4=; b=jgh3JLC0A0vpD88qnZCeW4mwn/lwGp065hd8b/lARJhe37Iwtl9fgBdDsfAEGnwVWe Lmxk2nRzPfeaglzmpr10rMUrYPAeJG83C89FCsxFk4bQP/Vrr35wlDntDhynO9I1FoLk Y781X+Ni6OwtXktgnkAEflGHu3lJWBZhKlDtlM0jzWThnFCkiIrCxEM3JY6xAS3AJFdK M/Qcy2twm8rbw2ApW28/FpybW6T+01b7f84B1WsrNjO7VTEVJS25/Kz3YF7BMNIXGLUi vvDUlmwvpoEnHoPMi+ZbyZ8Ddq+ne35wE0yS/XGLl3EpGSgyK6Cv/3vNNe4E9Z1kQbAJ Z7vQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1737217520; x=1737822320; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qJI4CP4Q5Ljw2GovFHT8CQxcvUEhfdOQw9Eu+q1GfT4=; b=GagwT9rAfNDlZRm2c4cgY7yLVjQzoO8GkRMR5Mt4AdHQjGeOZI9eEyGiqKwSDOaLyD EpNl6XONx88tEyfR30yad+Ir9IYWQzoDMOlGln+4OxZChKldeyT0bhUcsfjWWfzT3nc1 sz8V1dOwZGfQm52bPpsg4hsFDhypjDz6fORR6ifziJRqLXRPK2yNF3b2r+rqGor8OV2R gQoY3LEQQ3cENJVbU49mrLwjFSerF9SsMBfVxgfC0/ZAGBFuujoYmdmPVlEeli/7ijer F6vYLtZx6pYrI2u1Hs8P+AZ/QXeh/NBB4HkY31v5Ji0oYiXNNQKNvX+93HtN5/mnKkgs MY5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YztIKb83NE4/a2iDtuAjheRdottkg2GQ8cdVYMwW6zfIRHNUzx5 7bnVyZFsLwt6gwSX01dWPHFAZ9sXM0f3p37Uv+E/ix/6q48mV9NCDIYXFZSjoy62HKcwi1ziboT rIy1maabADt+ILLe2K8k3ndS3/eQOVztZ X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvxVuLGBnkxuyHqsJMvM7v71oRpGCv0Xo9wpBWkXF2GtcDbCKEjTv04tjbxqEr fKpn+OBSw1FVInY8DZWuHMAUYhn8737gfYEgDhYOzUWWRzVtflKqhGdpHk3lFggQ4UoBbEH2APG 5ni7VK X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFZEAqXXzYnQtem8eSZ6E6tSlGkdQk3zd37a9BgDdYE9tHjmnekqSuTLW9RA+Xi7V2tBeBtm4jmYC/j+nl+MTA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1fec:b0:3ce:b3c8:820b with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3cf74493960mr53142945ab.19.1737217519623; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 08:25:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28a16508-9ee5-41f1-af02-2f8cd7371de8@aueb.gr> <67F7FAEB-551F-47AA-9E09-2D8948E4CCCF@iitbombay.org> <20250118151656.GQ1701@mcvoy.com> <2FC28EC8-6146-4D0F-BAB3-86F2A86332BB@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: <2FC28EC8-6146-4D0F-BAB3-86F2A86332BB@iitbombay.org> From: Tom Lyon Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 08:25:08 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kva1MFW8HzRia0Y2YjbYMDsV2cipD60Yu4p3kBqQnp3qrWZBv5vbTfEvDR8 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027bacb062bfd7944" Message-ID-Hash: LILBF2NG3BBF3RP7LGU25HAILYTL52TQ X-Message-ID-Hash: LILBF2NG3BBF3RP7LGU25HAILYTL52TQ X-MailFrom: pugs78@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Perkin-Elmer Sort/Merge II vs Unix sort(1) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000027bacb062bfd7944 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Related to the sort discussion, there's an oral history of Duane Whitlow, founder of SyncSort, which was a big deal in IBM shops in the 70s. (and perhaps later; I lost track) https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/05/102702251= -05-01-acc.pdf On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 8:00=E2=80=AFAM Bakul Shah via TUHS = wrote: > On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:16=E2=80=AFAM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 04:51:15PM +0200, Diomidis Spinellis wrote: > >> I'm sure the mainframe sort programs did some pretty amazing things an= d > >> could run circles around the puny 830 line Unix Seventh Edition sort > >> program. The 215 page IBM DOS VS sort documentation that John Levine > posted > >> here is particularly impressive. But I can't stop thinking that, in > common > >> with the mainframes these programs were running on, they represent a > mindset > >> that has been surpassed by superior ideas. > > > > I disagree. Go back and read the reply where someone was talking about > > sorting datasets that spanned multiple tapes, each of which was much > > larger than local disk. sort(1) can't begin to think about handling > > something like that. > > > > I have a lot of respect for how Unix does things, if the problem fits > > then the Unix answer is more simple, more flexible, it's better. If > > the problem doesn't fit, the Unix answer is awful. > > > > cmd < data | cmd2 | cmd3 > > > > is a LOT of data copying. A custom answer that did all of that in > > one address space is a lot more efficient but also a lot more special > > purpose. Unix wins on flexibility and simplicity, special purpose > > wins on performance. > > Mainframes had usage based pricing, not unlike what you pay for renting > resources in the cloud, so performance really mattered. Also note that > users use whatever computing resources they have available to get their > job done, ideally at the lowest cost. Elegance of any OS architecture > is secondary, if that. > > --00000000000027bacb062bfd7944 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Related to the sort discussion, there's an oral histor= y of Duane Whitlow, founder of SyncSort, which was a big deal in IBM shops = in the 70s. (and perhaps later; I lost track)
On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 8:0= 0=E2=80=AFAM Bakul Shah via TUHS <tuhs@= tuhs.org> wrote:
On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:16=E2=80=AFAM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 04:51:15PM +0200, Diomidis Spinellis wrote: >> I'm sure the mainframe sort programs did some pretty amazing t= hings and
>> could run circles around the puny 830 line Unix Seventh Edition so= rt
>> program.=C2=A0 The 215 page IBM DOS VS sort documentation that Joh= n Levine posted
>> here is particularly impressive.=C2=A0 But I can't stop thinki= ng that, in common
>> with the mainframes these programs were running on, they represent= a mindset
>> that has been surpassed by superior ideas.
>
> I disagree.=C2=A0 Go back and read the reply where someone was talking= about
> sorting datasets that spanned multiple tapes, each of which was much > larger than local disk.=C2=A0 sort(1) can't begin to think about h= andling
> something like that.
>
> I have a lot of respect for how Unix does things, if the problem fits<= br> > then the Unix answer is more simple, more flexible, it's better.= =C2=A0 If
> the problem doesn't fit, the Unix answer is awful.
>
> cmd < data | cmd2 | cmd3
>
> is a LOT of data copying.=C2=A0 A custom answer that did all of that i= n
> one address space is a lot more efficient but also a lot more special<= br> > purpose.=C2=A0 Unix wins on flexibility and simplicity, special purpos= e
> wins on performance.

Mainframes had usage based pricing, not unlike what you pay for renting
resources in the cloud, so performance really mattered. Also note that
users use whatever computing resources they have available to get their
job done, ideally at the lowest cost. Elegance of any OS architecture
is secondary, if that.

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