From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6BD2006D for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 10:08:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813AF427C9; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 18:08:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 445B6427BE for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 18:08:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-35dc7d0387cso3587995f8f.1 for ; Sun, 02 Jun 2024 01:08:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1717315702; x=1717920502; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mQKqnoVdW8HU/0iIWRrkVZlKUhelWf/qb3Li02S0WWM=; b=iCc0Bubt0/7/dEMLdfyGly4oHb9e4xt5jCUb/28NQKXhfEGvT2IdS+fJe0E6NcPuX4 acDS9jh5DfkWXwB61NyLSZwQ2As/Gcaka345M4qLLN2I0lCNzuCV33wl4pG9HWZ6qsU2 ulAWUkTN52e1qEimKKCiNCOOECm/bPGSc9xN0y910XSKs4aNCrYUvOdT0JaDBoKCdfqG MshN4LbLUCXCvJLliviGWM1T1JagJc7InfnLNqquSiLn/XfKDyA43N2w2u2i9FdYo/C0 pOzNFTWZnvXMMZelyo5xR/lHfK1wX7pvQgrw3kNwiHC1/+DeVEs6O1E1FktJGqLGlOu+ n7Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717315702; x=1717920502; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=mQKqnoVdW8HU/0iIWRrkVZlKUhelWf/qb3Li02S0WWM=; b=gVZwyAAlR36RX+WqcJsZhdwbk38HwnkVInKHYNn//26lEiId5B+Of0Eg0ZUdyGTJzj 5lY2jdShIVgBCCx9ww5QZCstW5qnj3se3fo2n1LcIGZkTF4fbi50ntw7dqsQGLBWqMMM 6QoaZP2uxGvReYRUEFOEdM7RydQic7Qv5VcTRRHhp5jnt4Mr7S90pf51phwcrJv4wOXR jLtUF+mpN9hcHKBSNFS51vh0j2GCllszVWkv7+rT5B8IC55sYYysdwr0IZWuOqNLVcV4 cagWUhsrCMV8o+JwVkVjqBugW3a9aNTn3RkeHxBfd4U5uLqJRwxdE2SDriDlmxqFO1Rz MCTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwNeMxCxFkRKHLx1GofjEdTcBGlfkCHMJcPfHpzOwZaSMRjp14f HDN9Nkj6sbevj8WaEyLZkyf/tr5ZkkzBa0iPAcMXxluBWIhl9tDhrGE7tvEsxVR9D+nPgFQumaM X+ijomjWZds7ctvihOhGi4EDWKQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEQeix8no2r+5dwJ0ePOlO3idnPNui8qvT+MQMtC29J0sr/lzEUXV0ite0/b7pi0v8Ksd5vC7icmZhiBxuPd+c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:235:b0:354:df31:6dfc with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-35e0f34e746mr4816215f8f.58.1717315702218; Sun, 02 Jun 2024 01:08:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Marc Rochkind Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2024 11:08:08 +0300 Message-ID: To: Kevin Bowling Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000065e9430619e3b814" Message-ID-Hash: 72O5J65PDTNKFWOPYZTGJQE7WKN4FWRK X-Message-ID-Hash: 72O5J65PDTNKFWOPYZTGJQE7WKN4FWRK X-MailFrom: mrochkind@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Proliferation of book print styles List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000065e9430619e3b814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True enough, Kevin, but with the decline of printed books and the increase in online docs, I rarely find what I'm looking for in a printed book and, when I think I have, the price is very high for what may turn out to be a bad guess. Browsing a bookstore for serious computer books is no longer possible, except maybe in very large cities. For example, for an upcoming project I need up-to-date and authoritative information on Kotlin and AWS S3 APIs. Living in the past, I find, is no help! Marc Rochkind (author of the first book on UNIX programming) On Sun, Jun 2, 2024, 7:12=E2=80=AFAM Kevin Bowling wrote: > On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:31=E2=80=AFPM Will Senn wr= ote: > > > > Today, as I was digging more into nroff/troff and such, and bemoaning > the lack of brevity of modern text. I got to thinking about the old days > and what might have gone wrong with book production that got us where we > are today. > > > > First, I wanna ask, tongue in cheek, sort of... As the inventors and > early pioneers in the area of moving from typesetters to print on demand.= .. > do you feel a bit like the Manhattan project - did you maybe put too much > power into the hands of folks who probably shouldn't have that power? > > > > But seriously, I know the period of time where we went from hot metal > typesetting to the digital era was an eyeblink in history but do y'all > recall how it went down? Were you surprised when folks settled on word > processors in favor of markup? Do you think we've progressed in the area = of > ease of creating documentation and printing it making it viewable and > accurate since 1980? > > > > I didn't specifically mention unix, but unix history is forever bound t= o > the evolution of documents and printing, so I figure it's fair game for > TUHS and isn't yet COFF :). > > > > Later, > > > > Will > > I think your other topic is closely related but I chose this one to reply > to. > > I own something well north of 10,000 technical and engineering books > so I will appoint myself as an amateur librarian. > > When I was younger, I had the false notion that anything new is good. > This attitude permates a lot of society. Including professional > libraries. They have a lot of collection management practices around > deciding what and when to pitch something and a big one is whether the > work is still in print, while a more sophisticated collection will > also take into account circulation numbers (how often it is checked > out). A lot of that is undoubtedly the real costs surrounding storing > and displaying something (an archived book has a marginal cost, a > publically accessible displayed book presumably has a higher > associated cost) as well as the desire to remain current and provide > value to the library's membership. > > From what I have seen, there isn't much notion of retaining or > promoting a particular work unless it remains in print. As an > example, K&R C is still in print and would be retained by most > libraries. The whole thing becomes a bit ouroboros because that leads > to more copies being printed, and it remaining in collections, and > being read. Obviously, this is a case of a great piece of work > benefiting from the whole ordeal. But for more niche topics, that > kind of feedback loop doesn't happen. So the whole thing comes down > in a house of cards... the publisher guesses how many books to print, > a glut of them are produced, they enter circulation, and then it goes > out of print in a few years. A few years later it is purged from the > public libraries. As an end user, one benefit to this collapse is > that used books are basically flooded into the market and you can get > many books for a fraction of their retail price used.. but it becomes > difficult to know _what_ to get if you don't have an expert guide or > somewhere to browse and select for yourself. > > So why does this all matter to your more meta question of why less > great books? There is less to no money in it nowadays for authors. > The above example of library circulation represented a large number of > guaranteed sales to wealthy institutions (academic and government =3D > wealth, don't let them pretend otherwise). Except now many libraries > have downsized their physical collections to make room for multimedia > or just lower density use of space. So there are less guaranteed > sales. > > Another facet of the same coin, one reason printed books are great has > to do with the team surrounding their production. If you look near > the colophon, you will often find a textbook will have quite a few > people involved in moving a manuscript to production. This obviously > costs a lot of money. As things move more to ebook and print on > demand, it's an obvious place to cut publishing expenses and throw all > the work directly onto the author. That may result in cheaper books > and maybe(?) more revenue for the author, but it won't have the same > quality that a professional publishing team can bring to the table. > > As to my deliberate decision to accumulate the dead trees and ink, > it's because although online docs are great I find my best learning is > offline while I use the online docs more like mental jogs for a > particular API or refamiliarizing myself with the problem domain. I > have some grandeur ambitions that first involve a large scanning > project but that will have to await more self funding. > > Regards, > Kevin > --00000000000065e9430619e3b814 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
True enough, Kevin, but with the decline of printed books= and the increase in online docs, I rarely find what I'm looking for in= a printed book and, when I think I have, the price is very high for what m= ay turn out to be a bad guess. Browsing a bookstore for serious computer bo= oks is no longer possible, except maybe in very large cities.

For example, for an upcoming project I need= up-to-date and authoritative information on Kotlin and AWS S3 APIs.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Living in the past, I find, is= no help!

Marc Rochkind<= /div>
(author of the first book on UNIX programming)
=

= On Sun, Jun 2, 2024, 7:12=E2=80=AFAM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:31=E2=80=AFPM Will Se= nn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Today, as I was digging more into nroff/troff and such, and bemoaning = the lack of brevity of modern text. I got to thinking about the old days an= d what might have gone wrong with book production that got us where we are = today.
>
> First, I wanna ask, tongue in cheek, sort of... As the inventors and e= arly pioneers in the area of moving from typesetters to print on demand... = do you feel a bit like the Manhattan project - did you maybe put too much p= ower into the hands of folks who probably shouldn't have that power? >
> But seriously, I know the period of time where we went from hot metal = typesetting to the digital era was an eyeblink in history but do y'all = recall how it went down? Were you surprised when folks settled on word proc= essors in favor of markup? Do you think we've progressed in the area of= ease of creating documentation and printing it making it viewable and accu= rate since 1980?
>
> I didn't specifically mention unix, but unix history is forever bo= und to the evolution of documents and printing, so I figure it's fair g= ame for TUHS and isn't yet COFF :).
>
> Later,
>
> Will

I think your other topic is closely related but I chose this one to reply t= o.

I own something well north of 10,000 technical and engineering books
so I will appoint myself as an amateur librarian.

When I was younger, I had the false notion that anything new is good.
This attitude permates a lot of society.=C2=A0 Including professional
libraries.=C2=A0 They have a lot of collection management practices around<= br> deciding what and when to pitch something and a big one is whether the
work is still in print, while a more sophisticated collection will
also take into account circulation numbers (how often it is checked
out).=C2=A0 A lot of that is undoubtedly the real costs surrounding storing=
and displaying something (an archived book has a marginal cost, a
publically accessible displayed book presumably has a higher
associated cost) as well as the desire to remain current and provide
value to the library's membership.

>From what I have seen, there isn't much notion of retaining or
promoting a particular work unless it remains in print.=C2=A0 As an
example, K&R C is still in print and would be retained by most
libraries.=C2=A0 The whole thing becomes a bit ouroboros because that leads=
to more copies being printed, and it remaining in collections, and
being read.=C2=A0 Obviously, this is a case of a great piece of work
benefiting from the whole ordeal.=C2=A0 But for more niche topics, that
kind of feedback loop doesn't happen.=C2=A0 So the whole thing comes do= wn
in a house of cards... the publisher guesses how many books to print,
a glut of them are produced, they enter circulation, and then it goes
out of print in a few years.=C2=A0 A few years later it is purged from the<= br> public libraries.=C2=A0 As an end user, one benefit to this collapse is
that used books are basically flooded into the market and you can get
many books for a fraction of their retail price used.. but it becomes
difficult to know _what_ to get if you don't have an expert guide or somewhere to browse and select for yourself.

So why does this all matter to your more meta question of why less
great books?=C2=A0 There is less to no money in it nowadays for authors. The above example of library circulation represented a large number of
guaranteed sales to wealthy institutions (academic and government =3D
wealth, don't let them pretend otherwise).=C2=A0 Except now many librar= ies
have downsized their physical collections to make room for multimedia
or just lower density use of space.=C2=A0 So there are less guaranteed
sales.

Another facet of the same coin, one reason printed books are great has
to do with the team surrounding their production.=C2=A0 If you look near the colophon, you will often find a textbook will have quite a few
people involved in moving a manuscript to production.=C2=A0 This obviously<= br> costs a lot of money.=C2=A0 As things move more to ebook and print on
demand, it's an obvious place to cut publishing expenses and throw all<= br> the work directly onto the author.=C2=A0 That may result in cheaper books and maybe(?) more revenue for the author, but it won't have the same quality that a professional publishing team can bring to the table.

As to my deliberate decision to accumulate the dead trees and ink,
it's because although online docs are great I find my best learning is<= br> offline while I use the online docs more like mental jogs for a
particular API or refamiliarizing myself with the problem domain.=C2=A0 I have some grandeur ambitions that first involve a large scanning
project but that will have to await more self funding.

Regards,
Kevin
--00000000000065e9430619e3b814--