From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECB7216B9 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2025 20:35:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4042443F35; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 05:35:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05BC843F32 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 05:35:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-38a8b35e168so1737085f8f.1 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:35:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1737142524; x=1737747324; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uwR/cW02aKkI2EMaCUICpJfbvsPhITcVFSW1ldZN1NA=; b=iggULHhpsv0R5kF2xp0mYX2Zt6rThIobGXqRPzby2loaeAAh7bQ6M/zlwgX8znE2qK FbaAu/9qw2T36GqklPohfVmhdC1mru+5QbnZvT2M9Gg33CXMsIe0jQzmrk73SaQ3HwlW +Jn35xgIryPPFOJd9qIqgoMreB+JjR2hb+86RAbhs0FDMzWuOyUNyoX41U5KGYKvgW1l 9d69LjDO7fzuoFNgyyJI1h/T9OdzSzA6VrzpDuKVF5Lh0ABNDXMYQxZHfHpd5ZKkQ1zv 405/hsPso1lRMFNjE9+UfqzDuq41Tl0c+s2EaAILLAAUK61zRAUV61Iy1tBrmYYTR3rH 1zMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1737142524; x=1737747324; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=uwR/cW02aKkI2EMaCUICpJfbvsPhITcVFSW1ldZN1NA=; b=tlkcQ/vCO2usLXx4Lo34zdroY5sSrr+GTd35t07wurI5+xzfsMYisb3YPr1T+gZIEt 881FeRq1GF8ueHRNUoetbewaix0tWEe+ZMe24k0NsJ1hDY4GvtEuhiTtNdtEVx8HsvMi uLOxiHRCj11Ih4/xQ2mPpswCuPlfLQ+Cg7IJ4hkSdRrNde1K1cEAKntK0Xq68eFM5TUh NE8tRWTh6QPRZJZtEXIXg+0ONJE0slvA/oJYSr/2p4in2QFuixX2aMV6EGOX8oIVflbf 0WaZSaMFx/mAWSuetHpKhDK7orJE33faksSlglrmY3P0Fv4bBisvTqmJzVzft0G+WkBm RYTg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVx71vCbipWRrNnEGVsB72eBC9La5FjQb2cnpfEKUReqUWEtLCFMlx5ZRRQ0KYJcAntzG9T@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyuob2MMHShWo1lVy8pescKlwBzD9Pff7i9ZQqoilF6L7jEPYG9 GI4Q4SjcMHj9zd4pk60ML3+bNFFmCjwsszUQA6nkZUacJBAwYklY9ALUhuB+DSpzE+o5cflpZ7b BEq+YBvZSLYa4rrElpl1rtUKy3N74 X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv5e+4DYPHoxHg4ta2N9HGRaMb9/UjP36RJDG+EQIH3fhCHqsjjh5hTRafPxa9 WRzIPB8R8Th8g7VeKoVEZpQFLXDcPZp9FN+t3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGxSP43z5p42qrJZ7miwR0AyAUhlpqmMor/gXwjIeOYlCeHuiFCmUDuOncvXRzH7auVfKyjJ5JCXEGnxuEzPjk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:64ad:0:b0:38a:5dc4:6dcd with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-38bf5b02b35mr4142870f8f.22.1737142524214; Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:35:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28a16508-9ee5-41f1-af02-2f8cd7371de8@aueb.gr> <67F7FAEB-551F-47AA-9E09-2D8948E4CCCF@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: <67F7FAEB-551F-47AA-9E09-2D8948E4CCCF@iitbombay.org> From: Marc Rochkind Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 12:35:13 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kvbDun9XuRxrYWCIv94juxHFZlD-8yvnR53cBJy1HZYWGLq1knKdwQ4oOb4 Message-ID: To: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001484e4062bec03f8" Message-ID-Hash: BKWHFSXX7M377GD3R26FSLCD4XXD5XNU X-Message-ID-Hash: BKWHFSXX7M377GD3R26FSLCD4XXD5XNU X-MailFrom: mrochkind@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Perkin-Elmer Sort/Merge II vs Unix sort(1) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001484e4062bec03f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why did you say "thoughtless agglomeration of features?" Do you know anything about the design of the P-E S/M, or is just a biased guess? Have you ever tried a large external sort with UNIX commands? Marc On Fri, Jan 17, 2025, 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah via TUHS = wrote: > On Jan 17, 2025, at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM, Diomidis Spinellis wro= te: > > > > I also think that the design of Perkin-Elmer's Sort/Merge II shows the > influence of salespeople forcing developers to tack-on whatever features > were required by important customers. Maybe the clean design of Unix owe= s > a lot to AT&T's operation under the 1956 consent decree that prevented it > from entering the computer market. This may have shielded the system's > design from unhealthy market pressures during its critical gestation year= s. > > IIRC sort/merge was/is a pretty major thing on IBM mainframes, with > products from multiple companies. May be Perkin-Elmer were trying > to compete with mainframe sort/merge products? Also, I suspect that > for sorting terabytes of data Unix sort likely won't work as fast as > mainframe sorts.... --0000000000001484e4062bec03f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Why did you say "thoughtless agglomeration of features?= "

Do you know anything about the design of the P-E S/M, or is = just a biased guess? Have you ever tried a large external sort with UNIX co= mmands?

Marc


On Fri, Jan 17, 2025, 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah via TUHS = <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
=
On Jan 17, 2025, at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM, Diomidi= s Spinellis <dds@aueb.gr> wrote:
>
> I also think that the design of Perkin-Elmer's Sort/Merge II shows= the influence of salespeople forcing developers to tack-on whatever featur= es were required by important customers.=C2=A0 Maybe the clean design of Un= ix owes a lot to AT&T's operation under the 1956 consent decree tha= t prevented it from entering the computer market.=C2=A0 This may have shiel= ded the system's design from unhealthy market pressures during its crit= ical gestation years.

IIRC sort/merge was/is a pretty major thing on IBM mainframes, with
products from multiple companies. May be Perkin-Elmer were trying
to compete with mainframe sort/merge products? Also, I suspect that
for sorting terabytes of data Unix sort likely won't work as fast as mainframe sorts....
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