From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL,MISSING_HEADERS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7521621277 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:29:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1BD43279; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 09:29:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1906443275 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 09:29:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-36796d2e5a9so50895f8f.3 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 16:29:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1720049377; x=1720654177; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k/bI17OAgoee0Nv2OtxnxlRknSY43LlKGrRmG7TXIXo=; b=jT93VF7AFZrr6ZI76ihLi3hIkxNgezKWpz5CEpcw1W6cIbVWMg4Rtzcjl1b5M/Ib+O h3mfGCkP8BIFjE8NVy5rVfDdclkhM7tjdX0w6wwqRHwzBlHZPLsvKEDsAFXEGH3uSGJj SreSqqWM26d6M5rSJrOKL6tAVwpmnEtDhOwg04DjrhFS3SPi1Jabdf0qSUm7Md+gv1DB jvC+SqmItqMqmuD/Ov61R6QTF99QqWUYFXQAqyeW0yvF/ubY6jJtvKcXGd4muN/X2kiu zJzyDIh5Pgc0StjgNdXpSzhNXmADwW/yDfHPK1H6WdxCK2aA7C9LjWNoWIa2UkZ64m6g zW7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1720049377; x=1720654177; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k/bI17OAgoee0Nv2OtxnxlRknSY43LlKGrRmG7TXIXo=; b=ix2QYvptpQeDDC2iG/WAN/szAmZ5qwt4KnTXnrDgx07FUwPUnkNyPukVD9YZ1Y34cv yd4A6o5Vsl0VGCDvoE43IfmRVMbOcNTVJawqiXc5wCGIGqbETephKYXCIbgSIEU57fu2 qELQxA99IVUFKk3en6X7cjhn5blVMeloSfb6pVFOtdPcz15C5XZnEAyx0Q17j+BcyUsi NiT0miu/uB6qvxYUcWwViX9PygL066muouQtC3wBFscSnRUi0vIJYm7unqIWEZLC/47v RkMAGcInjYedbBvRfJy49Ho81LrCJmepXmwhcMJf8qhC/KZkeil7sWOVLPbW19ODBNth s5Cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywl25CXGYIOgdQ4LW3JnAKFBuYaxApjCU6kMe32cneneEsEic3y hTPbzbVCnTQ9HjDukkkds+Sy+3A/HF5/t/WV2NEipm8/XnUCiiNB3W3SWV2/OHEi371I0unhzXd ZykuJ3yWM6g+Vq9p+1SQMKNQugLj4xnvLyA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHXe4Oq+s78vpzXim4BIivdLYbXgUqOc8CZ1unkp0/CBQGsabkgzsC1En5KeqpIPAMVSFiDLzztQy2LuJwqtb0= X-Received: by 2002:adf:eecd:0:b0:367:94ff:6835 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3679dd2a04amr61422f8f.18.1720049377101; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 16:29:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93529CA0-7097-443C-999B-384BE6BD5683@canb.auug.org.au> In-Reply-To: From: Marc Rochkind Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:29:26 -0600 Message-ID: Cc: TUHS Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e51fc061c6034a6" Message-ID-Hash: XKTD47XCZQ6CBAJK6OKTOPZLP4VJVBPD X-Message-ID-Hash: XKTD47XCZQ6CBAJK6OKTOPZLP4VJVBPD X-MailFrom: mrochkind@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001e51fc061c6034a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Vincenzo Nicosia wrote: > ... > > The programmers considered as "fungible workforce" by mainstream > software engineering and project management theories are *paid* to to > their programming job, and they mostly have to carry that job over > working on prescribed objectives and timelines which have been decided > by somebody else, managers who know nothing at all about software > development. Personal interest in the project, passion, motivation, > curiosity, creative power, sense of beauty, the joy of belonging to a > community of likeminded people, are never part of the equation, at any > point. > > What a cynical take on software development! The logical error is to assume that if something is sometimes true (e.g., " managers who know nothing at all about software development") then it is always true. My experience over many decades is quite different. Most often, managers know software quite well. Where they fail is in their very poor understanding of how to manage people. The bias that operates in software development, and perhaps all organizations, is that when there is a disagreement between management and non-management (e.g., programmers), the non-managers usually assume that they are always right and the managers are wrong. I have never met a programmer or group of programmers who were always right. Most often, they are ignorant of financing, regulatory constraints, product schedules, commitments, staffing issues, and everything else that isn't coding. (There are exceptions, but they are uncommon.) Management, by definition, is the art and science of using resources to reach an objective. Programmers generally are concerned only with themselves as a resource and with their own personal programming objective. It is unusual to find a programmer who understands management. Marc --0000000000001e51fc061c6034a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 9:27=E2=80=AFA= M Vincenzo Nicosia <katolaz@frea= knet.org> wrote:
...

The programmers considered as "fungible workforce" by mainstream<= br> software engineering and project management theories are *paid* to to
their programming job, and they mostly have to carry that job over
working on prescribed objectives and timelines which have been decided
by somebody else, managers who know nothing at all about software
development. Personal interest in the project, passion, motivation,
curiosity, creative power, sense of beauty, the joy of belonging to a
community of likeminded people, are never part of the equation, at any
point.


What a cynical take on software development! The lo= gical error is to assume that if something is sometimes true (e.g., " = managers who know nothing at all about software development") then it = is always true.

My experience over many decades is= quite different. Most often, managers know software quite well. Where they= fail is in their very poor understanding of how to manage people.

The bias that operates in software development, and perhap= s all organizations, is that when there is a disagreement between managemen= t and non-management (e.g., programmers), the non-managers usually assume t= hat they are always right and the managers are wrong.

<= div>I have never met a programmer or group of programmers who were always r= ight. Most often, they are ignorant of financing, regulatory constraints, p= roduct schedules, commitments, staffing issues, and everything else that is= n't coding. (There are exceptions, but they are uncommon.) Management, = by definition, is the art and science of using resources to reach an object= ive. Programmers generally are concerned only with themselves as a resource= and with their own personal programming objective. It is unusual to find a= programmer who understands management.

Marc
= --0000000000001e51fc061c6034a6--