From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL,MISSING_HEADERS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F5627E76 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5658942871; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 00:59:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com (mail-wm1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::331]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBA664286F for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 00:59:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42563a9fa58so38691275e9.0 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 07:59:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1720018763; x=1720623563; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KCIjgB5s+fgwrwQInA+JZNx0VRwCyNMcZ7+jhgUwYa4=; b=RXmLUR2wNzdO21ZJIzFfyaEpAWlZrF/1XGFhvTPxunG5nebqaHpxdF1UoD/OvbBC1v kpnoKUaMzxco31iuTIzXP0LLtCQB6K3xSd2CEqWNwO6aEX+CMeGbAws2HVpIyxEkKKsa Wd7zCJNjxFE4WANYPHTXLdbyVsDCupjzHu2llEO4kYURxUV641ImaHw/Z9FJE9qulINx S3LzvTe534p7y5ZOWQLGpIb8yDHBrzMqm6KUyZ4C802jI272RLj9QT0duSPOkZSefu+b NR+Jpd8YFJN5c6M5WmmWicEnbLj9kh8FwNexGY6LngoMZqcie8U0XVagNiyjuBBNIMw3 X+PA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1720018763; x=1720623563; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KCIjgB5s+fgwrwQInA+JZNx0VRwCyNMcZ7+jhgUwYa4=; b=hJhSK8BGmCE3kCmhJVQ/E+c4TsXd3qbUnjj67agjLlmGoc1DucRCUJvKLMXeXZUfVQ F1Jnyjb2VVGUeYS6dfVIB/wp15z10IvVpeI9uq0v4ISqSqHuwDAWN38d/whE2oMEim9E 6L5UGcIziD50TJT5WWHsM1T9GUwZ8RH9Oigd4+g0miGlpiDVuMF9eslyYAmEzTWSnLPh p3waEVJvjHBgSqtk6UqcwuTIe0a9sMOo0mfhiys4YVBjOBEfLB6rmOavbTKn6RYvTUO/ 0xtMntYDsjVWRCH47dTxeNZ8+2T952vIDtItVsBgqQncX08MVI80RvMhq9N47rK+zxsH eUPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwNlEu8V1BOXMVuypOVAHxzgtmeN/I1xAvEEm0biktnl+BIlAwS DPiNWcXj1gSv0CC8EcedOJMJ/Mef0cMAo57BzGTQoHXeNPdk2qjTZ1M9qk8oj8NmEoFO5WaCevM vcf/U2b/3SF4DjSsTisdN7t7x93Ml3pRJlA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHBqjIKclvC33ItTteIlAYYaRn8bnF+vqo5JRa3XTjBsQgq42E6RA1S5emGdBlc3Neea6Ff1ZPMVXe2Bx22ol0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:253:b0:367:88c2:23a5 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-36788c22b00mr2375081f8f.27.1720018762894; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93529CA0-7097-443C-999B-384BE6BD5683@canb.auug.org.au> <1b03f128-192f-4f46-4e76-50b68cd0e5af@bitsavers.org> In-Reply-To: <1b03f128-192f-4f46-4e76-50b68cd0e5af@bitsavers.org> From: Marc Rochkind Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 08:59:11 -0600 Message-ID: Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e9459061c591334" Message-ID-Hash: QQBDM6O76MREKRLJEMKQYCETJEWHRTYM X-Message-ID-Hash: QQBDM6O76MREKRLJEMKQYCETJEWHRTYM X-MailFrom: mrochkind@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005e9459061c591334 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve Jenkin suggests: "Developers of Initial Unix arguably were 10x-100x more productive than IBM OS/360..." Indeed, this is part of accepted UNIX lore. However, to me, "productivity" in this context is a measure of how much time it takes to implement a specified objective. UNIX did not have a specified objective. From "The UNIX Time Sharing System," (Ritchie & Thompson): "Perhaps paradoxically, the success of UNIX is largely due to the fact that it was not designed to meet any predefined objectives." So, does this productivity advantage really mean anything? It's comparing a research project to an industrial development. The UNIX development methodology would seem to be this: Get a very small number of top people together with a common vision, ideally fewer than three, and see what happens. However many mistakes were made on the OS/360 project (very completely documented by Brooks), the need for an OS for the emerging 360 series would probably not have been met by the "see what happens" approach. Marc On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 12:27=E2=80=AFAM Al Kossow wrote= : > On 7/2/24 9:51 PM, sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au wrote: > > > I=E2=80=99ve never seen a large Open Source project succeed when attemp= ting to > use modern =E2=80=9CProject Management=E2=80=9D techniques. > > > > Managing an open source project is like herding a pack of alpha male > tomcats with their own agendas that you can't fire. > > > --=20 *My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com * --0000000000005e9459061c591334 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve Jenkin suggests: "Developers of Initial Unix ar= guably were 10x-100x more productive than IBM OS/360..."

Indeed, this is part of accepted UNIX lore. However, to me, "pro= ductivity" in this context is a measure of how much time it takes to i= mplement a specified objective. UNIX did not have a specified objective. Fr= om "The UNIX Time Sharing System," (Ritchie & Thompson):

"Perhaps paradoxically, the success of UNIX is la= rgely due to the fact that it was not designed to meet any predefined objec= tives."

So, does this productivity advant= age really mean anything? It's comparing a research project to an indus= trial=C2=A0development.

The UNIX development metho= dology would seem to be this: Get a very small number of top people togethe= r with a common vision, ideally fewer than three, and see what happens. How= ever many mistakes were made on the OS/360 project (very completely documen= ted by Brooks), the need for an OS for the emerging 360 series would probab= ly not have been met by the "see what happens" approach.

Marc

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 12:27=E2=80=AFAM Al Kosso= w <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:=
On 7/2/24 9:51 = PM, sjenkin@c= anb.auug.org.au wrote:

> I=E2=80=99ve never seen a large Open Source project succeed when attem= pting to use modern =E2=80=9CProject Management=E2=80=9D techniques.
>

Managing an open source project is like herding a pack of alpha male tomcat= s with their own agendas that you can't fire.




--
My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com
--0000000000005e9459061c591334--