From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19160 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2021 22:40:21 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Feb 2021 22:40:21 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B44839C7B6; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:40:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5761C9BA45; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:40:00 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="aWCoa2Q/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4B5349BA45; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:39:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-f50.google.com (mail-pj1-f50.google.com [209.85.216.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C97D39BA40 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:39:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id q72so2540718pjq.2 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:39:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LVcOjDFvf/WUQ8Gcdu1cHVgs6oN2/6R2vGbulY9vmjA=; b=aWCoa2Q/GBkRs34S4Cte0uIsSq24QBllRZyh92iArVBqdrHPToP6YQw2qyI8X5kzDu pxDf8+W+fybNdwF4atpfFXxpTKivALuLIetp4jhRfKEDLwSSVWdB2vP+g8BXNgqYH02+ h34nYH5J3p7DowsisgCYrc2FRvaOjSH0M8RQVaV2RplkTXAup8oZ8j1foWteyy0AQTy7 TQNySYsNfhkoKnRBW4K96UFHPiyP26ZA8is24t4tT/W6xLka0sxm+OvKmI0NaWHnaGGh 8xRl5zQ/F5LkxsX/nTOxra2qmKPbUjVGJWJT0QMZ+JDV8m6IV94LojN8hVVouLao67mY Z+LQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=LVcOjDFvf/WUQ8Gcdu1cHVgs6oN2/6R2vGbulY9vmjA=; b=hqoCJBL2aeO8kVmFtvElTOVmuU4AGuY61NBSe9capQ0mXImxr70+PXj3vcJlT0Ktge ERKl1rrzmUwXlmAvbH9SiznvrZOV1EKDHc3N5R7jZUR+65XEtr9MtDCEaLZj498EFd4P fbG3SDnOxpK8Xu4BmC5HEDkTj5H6a6lft7x4zHMWJJftDyPYTjAgjOVhVCMQQw9wtkYs PKxDc73FLfca6mtBEjgDgF8+MfBG94MXRGEE9xjpNhWiGPIxofR6c2piiGnknSDxLirw kzlo57ohFgQLNUE4YRwp0+3oc+JILU4e32iv3pnrU/OxnSx1SR2xvJdlDFtPamwOSDAa rExg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300k/j/s97WC0ZNwzhx/5bUMedQGG3RtZefxgJplraZqBPWFZ/w vG2UOtjUuft3cRQfmRiPXXgKRxwDNWW33NZS8TrRtZSUY5Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyzNXulDxSmv5d0sZBfeFqn9Ra0oIH4Z+B4C7qETTtq1ZwDc3z/Ttd66T3JAfBE0Hp3f0rj3AkvqbNiCW38QOw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a10e:: with SMTP id s14mr1147567pjp.133.1612478397783; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:39:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202102030759.1137x7C2013543@freefriends.org> <202102030858.1138wuqd011051@freefriends.org> <27567.1612399305@hop.toad.com> <20210204013356.GA16541@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:39:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ba18705ba8a62c2" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 68k prototypes & microcode X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001ba18705ba8a62c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm probably Stockholm Syndrommed about 6502. It's what I grew up on, and I still like it a great deal. Admittedly register-starved (well, unless you consider the zero page a whole page of registers), but...simple, easy to fit in your head, kinda wonderful. I'd love a 64-bit 6502-alike (but I'd probably give it more than three registers). I mean given how little silicon (or how few FPGA gates) a reasonable version of that would take, might as well include 65C02 and 65816 cores in there too with some sort of mode-switching instruction. Wouldn't a 6502ish with 64-bit wordsize and a 64-bit address bus be fun? Throw in an onboard MMU and FPU too, I suppose, and then you could have a real system on it. 32-bit SPARC was kind of fun and felt kind of like 6502. The 6502 wasn't exactly RISCy...but when working with RISC architectures, understanding the 6502 seemed to be helpful. I really liked the 68000, but in a different way. It's a nice, regular, easy-to-understand instruction set without many surprises, and felt to me like it had plenty of registers. Once the 68030 brought the MMU onboard it was glorious. Post-370 (which is to say 390/z IBM mainframe architectures) went wild with microprogrammed crazy baroque very, very special purpose instructions. Which, I mean, OK, cool, I guess, but not elegant. I don't really know enough about the DEC architectures. It is my strong impression that the PDP-11 is regular, simple to understand, and rather delightful (like I find the 68000), while VAX gets super-baroque like later IBM mainframe instruction sets. Although I've worked with emulated 10s, 11s, and VAXen, I've never really done anything in assembly (sure, you can argue that C is the best PDP-11 preprocessor there is) on them. On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:12 PM Steve Nickolas wrote: > On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > > The Z80 was quite nice; I wrote heaps of programs for it, and I even > found an > > ANSI C Compiler for it (Hi-Tech as I recall; BDS-C was, well, you could > > barely call it "C")[*]. I compiled a number of Unix programs... > > Well, it *was* "Braindead Software" C. > > > > > The x86 architecture is utterly brain-dead; I mean, what's wrong with a > > linear address space? I think it was JohnG who said "segment registers > > are for worms". > > The 65816 doesn't have the screwed-up bitshifted segment stuff but it's > also a segmented architecture and is also braindead. > > And I'm a 65C02 fan. > > -uso. > --0000000000001ba18705ba8a62c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm probably Stockholm Syndrommed about 6502.=C2= =A0 It's what I grew up on, and I still like it a great deal.=C2=A0 Adm= ittedly register-starved (well, unless you consider the zero page a whole p= age of registers), but...simple, easy to fit in your head, kinda wonderful.=

I'd love a 64-bit 6502-alike (but I'd pro= bably give it more than three registers).=C2=A0 I mean given how little sil= icon (or how few FPGA gates) a reasonable version of that would take, might= as well include 65C02 and 65816 cores in there too with some sort of mode-= switching instruction.=C2=A0 Wouldn't a 6502ish with 64-bit wordsize an= d a 64-bit address bus be fun?=C2=A0 Throw in an onboard MMU and FPU too, I= suppose, and then you could have a real system on it.

32-bit SPARC was kind of fun and felt kind of like 6502.=C2=A0 The= 6502 wasn't exactly RISCy...but when working with RISC architectures, = understanding the 6502 seemed to be helpful.

I= really liked the 68000, but in a different way.=C2=A0 It's a nice, reg= ular, easy-to-understand instruction set without many surprises, and felt t= o me like it had plenty of registers.=C2=A0 Once the 68030 brought the MMU = onboard it was glorious.

Post-370 (which is to= say 390/z IBM mainframe architectures) went wild with microprogrammed craz= y baroque very, very special purpose instructions.=C2=A0 Which, I mean, OK,= cool, I guess, but not elegant.

I don't reall= y know enough about the DEC architectures.=C2=A0 It is my strong impression= that the PDP-11 is regular, simple to understand, and rather delightful (l= ike I find the 68000), while VAX gets super-baroque like later IBM mainfram= e instruction sets.=C2=A0 Although I've worked with emulated 10s, 11s, = and VAXen, I've never really done anything in assembly (sure, you can a= rgue that C is the best PDP-11 preprocessor there is) on them.

On = Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:12 PM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> The Z80 was quite nice; I wrote heaps of programs for it, and I even f= ound an
> ANSI C Compiler for it (Hi-Tech as I recall; BDS-C was, well, you coul= d
> barely call it "C")[*].=C2=A0 I compiled a number of Unix pr= ograms...

Well, it *was* "Braindead Software" C.

<snip>

> The x86 architecture is utterly brain-dead; I mean, what's wrong w= ith a
> linear address space?=C2=A0 I think it was JohnG who said "segmen= t registers
> are for worms".

The 65816 doesn't have the screwed-up bitshifted segment stuff but it&#= 39;s
also a segmented architecture and is also braindead.

And I'm a 65C02 fan.

-uso.
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