From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13697 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2021 04:08:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Feb 2021 04:08:12 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id ADE3A9C1DD; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:08:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644259BA47; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:07:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="rRUhzrRG"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9C4D69BA47; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:07:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com (mail-pl1-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E53D9BA43 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:07:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id j11so8991936plt.11 for ; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 20:07:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ugoxtaN1KZDSDEIYMWZj/2l62SzhXZeqLce2E91/gU0=; b=rRUhzrRGSh8IKi/U7ePSqIldFBrpJVm9sIrENTfsscTEqdzgvExPAREX9RP5y2+Qcg ltCOXp1KhAQTLp29exjEj1HN4qbDmaGXwpKnbN/MUfb8Mxk6AAS6852Xfw0N0DrLM39H U1UtPkTQc8WYS8IbbyqVSEV7rdY0996JuX+XYtjwRvSpGOqv4oljE6HMn/e7h7VgK8/h hvOu8bRnoqnaNYaBJgxkWA7EI5aM+VGChe18wttjA8BnbV6XSsmYxnV45mid2oUC5/pW m/yClU2EUR1sUBjsxsJ0KISipKPWwZyh6dx1twPpAN8qXVF3EABZ1QUfqNrx3C8ymwVD IFgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ugoxtaN1KZDSDEIYMWZj/2l62SzhXZeqLce2E91/gU0=; b=Rce1QeIfrHVqiCCJRbLRVIIQJQNiFk9+7tqiNlq6968cZwv7oyN+o66BtRK17G5T/B Vvi39oW+VBFrGXVwH5ytYveDet6LgkWmF3TcMIXqyEmIpJQmigG/ShjMEP1m15WafBUN TER/ThT6kaZ+ZlPVQ1LmMKQbyLEccbXADP0iJBLD4YXFZ2reKvvfOQtOQve9JomCdmuJ C0swavCr1FFnIz4MCxde/8JXfvrKmb5P4qrgWfCgPFeaOKyNSa5rOI7MdvLr1aSGO+65 6wxQf2ZmdSsrvzCGUy9nuDIH1rD5+YR9XzxXtmhHg47eAYV9RJpVZgDHPFxews2/VifV zarQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531+Fv1DLAxp2LiT3Y3s985LdJ3q9rWLfaR8JsWoY0h6JGt/39i0 rX05N2uB2CLoMcP6B2iWcBtT3VJQF1USd9QvlUo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDhlpQHBIZzJYGxaDJmfXvm+IrWBRiCy3hoI7gNbmBPep2kdG+kH0Uh62+ZtSsIrcMQPcZ3FB56GZiGTxsaTE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b58f:b029:e1:6a9:f744 with SMTP id a15-20020a170902b58fb02900e106a9f744mr19378124pls.1.1612843663613; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 20:07:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 21:07:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: M Douglas McIlroy , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a5e28b05badf6d18" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a5e28b05badf6d18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Once you add the "s" editor (so you have a screen editor) and UUCP, v7 is an adequate daily driver, in my recent experience. No, it didn't actually replace my Mac, but with a way to get data on and off it and a decent editor (which I personally do not feel "ed" is)...it's totally OK. I can edit files and move them around, which honestly is most of my job. Adam On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 8:59 PM M Douglas McIlroy < m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing else? > > No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support? No web browsing? > > > Oh, you wanted more than that? Feature bloat! Feature bloat! > > Feature bloat! Shame! Shame! Shame! > > % ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc > 495 495 7230 > % ls /bin|wc > 2809 2809 30468 > > How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted > ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial > capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is > undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the > distinctive utility of today's systems. > > Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first > decade, but an average of 40 > per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of > maturity or of cancer? > > Doug > --000000000000a5e28b05badf6d18 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Once you add the "s" editor (so you have a = screen editor) and UUCP, v7 is an adequate daily driver, in my recent exper= ience.=C2=A0 No, it didn't actually replace my Mac, but with a way to g= et data on and off it and a decent editor (which I personally do not feel &= quot;ed" is)...it's totally OK.=C2=A0 I can edit files and move th= em around, which honestly is most of my job.

A= dam

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 8:59 PM M Douglas McIlroy <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu= > wrote:
= > Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing el= se?
> No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support?=C2=A0 No web browsing?

> Oh, you wanted more than that?=C2=A0 Feature bloat!=C2=A0 Feature bloa= t!
> Feature bloat!=C2=A0 =C2=A0Shame!=C2=A0 Shame!=C2=A0 =C2=A0Shame!

% ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 495=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0495=C2=A0 =C2=A0 7230
% ls /bin|wc
=C2=A0 =C2=A02809=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2809=C2=A0 =C2=A030468

How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted
ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial
capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is
undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the
distinctive utility of today's systems.

Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first
decade, but an average of 40
per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of
maturity or of cancer?

Doug
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