From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11378 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2023 23:43:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Sep 2023 23:43:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C2C410D0; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 09:43:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DB8D410C7 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 09:43:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-31dd10c2b8bso5867125f8f.3 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 16:43:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695167008; x=1695771808; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rfV3sJ0UP8WjIUbPyzkpgGOZU2BkgFP2ZJJod1cnEsU=; b=ZQYGNtDZDQQBGwe8LDdD8YgLHBpnbsfFX3TeCoODyhP0zdNpftaVZI13fQa+bjpaoX 6pFC6eJkl27jobjQa52mAauSsI5JHzi8LEVZeqLl8CvoDVoKbmj7N2DCT6/1jr+2QrYe GuGrvmpriNqHOZrb9ZLrlE3l0UpZ1W4gl2K8UF0jQ8wcmk2TptNOJ+M0atROzXjt6Kpr dE1TzZ6DiThNx/u+K4KbpFdj45iHE01RkkrLfzml2fKPU1s1Hcd+yQ/Lw6hEt0AUIdfU HlvwKHTA/SQ1IJCqKCl/D/No3+0YiA4YlP2Foo2bej3ruJ5kwzWBh+J1YD7ray32UJdh vFGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695167008; x=1695771808; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rfV3sJ0UP8WjIUbPyzkpgGOZU2BkgFP2ZJJod1cnEsU=; b=JxEFVht7VtohdymXiVv7Nyqg1JdVeBc5Md9b0ednoGgRnjqOmjWmSqVGW1vOqKuS+p E7Oyn2q+uML7X3KaM4xAprxQB32T5ryuLBmV+f3bDYRAU+P1HUFQtK3rwQ4sUKSPh4As DTfZ767IUlQX+dAmjGRtYPxpkN1XgbH+4AGsrY/YsT1aUnjrOz4Uz31Q+djVOO3jsatP TzbzwTvWbVqgz2XUmfa4CFUCzFAUWkyjMwXp0qIacT4RddZa3bbAbhFALtq1xNOgpVSd R8BR1Dg6Dop5UtSIXWGH9yXfkp0eRxlCQzHnh3/nV2S7giBb7JSie7WokmGCIttjOMNj FKQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzQXkQyyBzop1uKb1ulg8rYBYt/aSgBTAnwEfndzxCW2vRfk8ox pcNXwDTvfEUE+k0EAwEcYjJA5+iq9KkDgYjS4Q51g//qviE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF2Zd5LQ5rObMR+TXTP9x/PeqMQJc3JTAX1kEOtMAd+Q37R2QPEii21ZEQKDySm6FXmJ2SX9OH1XMohgaZYwNk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:60c5:0:b0:31f:dc60:13b5 with SMTP id x5-20020a5d60c5000000b0031fdc6013b5mr788162wrt.25.1695167007895; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 16:43:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> From: Adam Thornton Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 16:43:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: segaloco , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005733f50605bed3ce" Message-ID-Hash: AMWJ2PRV2FV5OXBT3QVKXSKJH5U4L3YU X-Message-ID-Hash: AMWJ2PRV2FV5OXBT3QVKXSKJH5U4L3YU X-MailFrom: athornton@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Project Idea: The UNIX Programmer's Manual: Heritage Edition List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005733f50605bed3ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would be very interested in this and haven't heard of anyone trying it. I actually just came to post a question-which-is-really-a-gripe about man pages, because this seems like the group that might be able to answer it, and given the existence of this topic, it seems like the sort of thing that should end up in the Definitive Unix Programmer's Manual. Why (and when) did GNU drop the HISTORY section from its man pages? It actually was really useful to me today to find out that sed appears in v7, but cut didn't come along until AT&T System III. I had to use a Mac's man pages, because the ones on my Linux systems don't have HISTORY sections. (this is in the context of: is there a better way to get the org/reponame information from a git repository than git ls-remote --get-url origin | sed -e "s|^origin$|$(git config --get user.name)/$(basename $(pwd))" -e 's/\.git$//' | rev | cut -d / -f 1-2 | cut -d : -f 1 | rev The more elegant and complicated regex sed expressions that my better-at-regex-than-I coworkers suggested to do away with rev-cut-rev do not manage to work on both (currentish) Mac and Linux, which are my target audience, Rubin Observatory development being split about 75/25; stripping the possible trailing .git is about all I can count on working in both environments' sed, but I can count on having *some* sed and coreutils. If anyone here has a better answer for getting that info out I'd appreciate it= ) Adam On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 1:32=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but figure I > might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest project is > starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff. > > So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of other folks= ' > libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the past few > decades into consideration. The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship manpages of > course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucker for a good print > manual. Something I'm thinking of producing as a "deliverable" of sorts > from my documentation research is a new-age UNIX manual, derived as close= ly > as possible from the formal UNIX documentation lineages (so Research, Sys= V, > and BSD pages), but: > > 1. Including subsequent POSIX requirements > 2. Including an informational section in each page with a little > history and some notes about current implementations, if applicable. Thi= s > would include notes about "dead on the vine" stuff like things plucked fr= om > the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines. The history part could even be a > separate book, that way the manual itself could stay tight and focused. > This would also be a good place for luminaries to provide reflections on > their involvement in given pieces. > > One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal landscape > of producing such a thing would entail. At the very least, to actually > call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pass some > sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes. That sai= d, > the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a little less > certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in > specifically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened > the commercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after > 1982. I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could b= e > published at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for anyway= .) > > Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship > information and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly > credited, if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements > section in the front. > > As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a couple o= f > different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bell > Laboratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, > another using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then > calls into question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the wa= y > the Bell logo is currently owned, that could get complicated. > > Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this? If I actually got suc= h > a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves interested in suc= h > a publication? In any case I do intend to start on a typesetter sources > version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but ideally I > would want it to blossom into something that could result in some physica= l > media. This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, so just know I > don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I see being a cool > potential project over the coming years. > > - Matt G. > --0000000000005733f50605bed3ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would be very interested in this and haven't he= ard of anyone trying it.

I actually just came to p= ost a question-which-is-really-a-gripe about man pages, because this seems = like the group that might be able to answer it, and given the existence of = this topic, it seems like the sort of thing that should end up in the Defin= itive Unix Programmer's Manual.

Why (and w= hen) did GNU drop the HISTORY section from its man pages?

It actually was really useful to me today to find out that sed appe= ars in v7, but cut didn't come along until AT&T System III.

I had to use a Mac's man pages, because the ones= on my Linux systems don't have HISTORY sections.

<= /div>
(this is in the context of: is there a better way to get the org/= reponame information from a git repository than

git ls-remote --get-url origin |= sed -e "s|^origin$|$(git= config --get user.name)/$(basename $(pwd)= )" -e 's/\.git$//' | = rev | cut -d / -f 1-2 | cut -d : -f 1 | rev

The more elegant and complicated regex sed expressions that my bett= er-at-regex-than-I coworkers suggested to do away with rev-cut-rev do not m= anage to work on both (currentish) Mac and Linux, which are my target audie= nce, Rubin Observatory development being split about 75/25; stripping the p= ossible trailing .git is about all I can count on working in both environme= nts' sed, but I can count on having some sed and coreutils.=C2= =A0 If anyone here has a better answer for getting that info out I'd ap= preciate it)

Adam

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 1:32= =E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuh= s.org> wrote:
I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but fig= ure I might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest project= is starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff.

So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of other fol= ks' libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the past f= ew decades into consideration.=C2=A0 The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship manpa= ges of course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucker for= a good print manual.=C2=A0 Something I'm thinking of producing as a &q= uot;deliverable" of sorts from my documentation research is a new-age = UNIX manual, derived as closely as possible from the formal UNIX documentat= ion lineages (so Research, SysV, and BSD pages), but:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Including subsequent POSIX requirements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Including an informational section in each page with a lit= tle history and some notes about current implementations, if applicable.=C2= =A0 This would include notes about "dead on the vine" stuff like = things plucked from the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines.=C2=A0 The history = part could even be a separate book, that way the manual itself could stay t= ight and focused.=C2=A0 This would also be a good place for luminaries to p= rovide reflections on their involvement in given pieces.

One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal landscape o= f producing such a thing would entail.=C2=A0 At the very least, to actually= call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pass som= e sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes.=C2=A0 Tha= t said, the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a little le= ss certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in specif= ically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened the com= mercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after 1982.=C2= =A0 I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could be pub= lished at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for anyway.= )

Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship informa= tion and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly credited= , if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements section in t= he front.

As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a couple of = different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bell Lab= oratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, anoth= er using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then calls i= nto question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the way the Bel= l logo is currently owned, that could get complicated.

Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this?=C2=A0 If I actually got = such a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves interested in = such a publication?=C2=A0 In any case I do intend to start on a typesetter = sources version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but ideall= y I would want it to blossom into something that could result in some physi= cal media.=C2=A0 This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, so jus= t know I don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I see b= eing a cool potential project over the coming years.

- Matt G.
--0000000000005733f50605bed3ce--