From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20881 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2021 15:51:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Nov 2021 15:51:02 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BD7419C5DB; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:50:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AE39C203; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:50:43 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="izwcGmAl"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 148649C203; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:50:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-f42.google.com (mail-pj1-f42.google.com [209.85.216.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1659C1E1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:50:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-f42.google.com with SMTP id np6-20020a17090b4c4600b001a90b011e06so3245085pjb.5 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:50:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1KSg8x+cF7wtlxLPtycBBpoqlv9GyMmQB93/gpKJZW4=; b=izwcGmAlbaz8aBa/JewVEmBU3SadbJoI9yxMRl2Qnck75+7SoJeqMg22hz+d+GuU7F hKFf51D97mPeAtjH6MdIjZ5901qdmuvvbH/A/NxeSPco0BtTCDhuIkYlWJoFfr2YLvzI L3i4MMUe0i2wtYUktHh3gHduWbLYAL+C0I9IgEF1dKMh6ZzDDjU1OuGIV4uNGWCK8R8x F4BOg3R858A2O1BFNUbcLRMOQI1XPXSubU7TP47Eg4IBGAUl/ZCHTUUhs/Z5f3YVDRBm mltDbJblCUiaLDsHd9/QiLlEm1XD4CxYDn60Ua7WBMNyr1ZgQvfMLKK70sLLUO6iAeo2 eiOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1KSg8x+cF7wtlxLPtycBBpoqlv9GyMmQB93/gpKJZW4=; b=XR+lCvE6EI6ulGhX3wie7V2FgQOUtIj2CnU1Rb0thkCdjJ9PMmkQJLOPzkBSUzG72x qUuBFgA4vPq/3RBnJv3QFOqfVUkvqcZIW9t7vaiEzTwwA0yEWoD0g0ppixDsHN/e1WMe ES+IzfUDMlpgNfwcTjzw/dL3saxEM/8vQzqxqCErY+xowqpOG5/1n2+IviT0upFC1A24 AsW1npVs+ywaRsMs/OsxI1WskC+wl+4SwK1U2fkvQ9lxy9HrjIf7yuZas4uX0Q601hNK mnc3ICbMbnYlmIoRQCpowHYycG7mvf2IJceh8nIu9+/BFSwd7P6wi0s+DtrC6jGzYkWt 0sJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PmNQ6w/osdyIdILxHDcqP27KbkGJ7QEt6VE+YB2xPR6CoB6Kn SO+D71reBfoW2jM08r9Jx+oz5Z0Tc1kRtU3woSc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYCwtM8hYGgne+CR0LLPu404XSrV0+5oHPDQ3ZXuY0T2ill1qgE8ieErVfCCwkNA/HIAo6A/uBN6gef3i2Mec= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3b8d:: with SMTP id pc13mr38169pjb.112.1637077841045; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:50:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211116040858.se3ygq2butxqopcx@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:50:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Richard Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f6b2d05d0e9e39b" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000002f6b2d05d0e9e39b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dijkstra notwithstanding, BASIC has the same strengths and weaknesses as, later, PHP would for the web, and I think that Javascript might have these days (and in the scientific programming world, Python). That is, it's very easy for the novice to get something working that gives them the results they want. Maintainability and efficiency are simply not on their radar for the scope of problem they're trying to solve. I'm not even sure how much of this you can lay at the feet of teachers: I would argue that we see a huge efflorescence of essentially self-taught programming cobbled together from (in the old days) the system manuals and programs in magazines, and (these days) Googling that takes you to Stack Overflow and various tutorials, of wildly varying quality. Maybe we should take the "personal" in "personal computing" seriously. That said, now that your personal project is probably exposed to the world via the Web, maybe that's not a good idea if you have any data behind that project whose integrity or privacy you care about. Disclaimer: my formative experiences were MS BASIC on 6502-based micros, and were fundamentally self-taught. Adam On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 8:38 AM Richard Salz wrote: > > What I don't know is if the PDP-8 BASIC came before the PDP-10 version. > > This was a fun rat-hole. (My first programming was Edu-24 BASIC on a > pdp-8/e my 7-12 school had.) It appears that the DEC-10 BASIC is earlier, > at least according to how I intuit the timeline from > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC-8 > > --0000000000002f6b2d05d0e9e39b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dijkstra notwithstanding, BASIC has the same strength= s and weaknesses as, later, PHP would for the web, and I think that Javascr= ipt might have these days (and in the scientific programming world, Python)= .

That is, it's very easy for the novice to ge= t something working that gives them the results they want.=C2=A0 Maintainab= ility and efficiency are simply not on their radar for the scope of problem= they're trying to solve.=C2=A0 I'm not even sure how much of this = you can lay at the feet of teachers: I would argue that we see a huge efflo= rescence of essentially self-taught programming cobbled together from (in t= he old days) the system manuals and programs in magazines, and (these days)= Googling that takes you to Stack Overflow and various tutorials, of wildly= varying quality.

Maybe we should take the &qu= ot;personal" in "personal computing" seriously.=C2=A0 That s= aid, now that your personal project is probably exposed to the world via th= e Web, maybe that's not a good idea if you have any data behind that pr= oject whose integrity or privacy you care about.

D= isclaimer: my formative experiences were MS BASIC on 6502-based micros, and= were fundamentally self-taught.

Adam

On = Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 8:38 AM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I don't know is= if the PDP-8 BASIC came before the PDP-10 version.

This was a = fun rat-hole.=C2=A0 (My first programming was Edu-24 BASIC on a pdp-8/e my = 7-12 school had.)=C2=A0 It appears that the DEC-10 BASIC is earlier, at lea= st according to how I intuit the timeline from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC= -8

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