From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d3f5ddcd for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:33:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 584FD9D6E7; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 01:33:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E699D51B; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 01:32:53 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="tHyrNXsj"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6421E9D51B; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 01:32:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f174.google.com (mail-oi1-f174.google.com [209.85.167.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2A999CE1E for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 01:32:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f174.google.com with SMTP id b18so9303024oie.2 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:32:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=t1bzEYeWCHH7bE9Xgd/EFWJC9x6xysVejji36TKeUl8=; b=tHyrNXsjNS3TcsgbhkOdMd0bsHYetI9q87e0VZTzg21gPWRH8mAVdDnVLBDZ9XLRvc SXBNnwQryBBu6Dhnm85VzHyWxdIR22nAEkZYrU0MBKGGp3ou/EgDDNMgc6L0fvNEm/0G 2/QtYjbJyJe/NpwfGW0F5iBBzTWJYRGo13nkFzmmWJMjQJklU/Ivcm0ggG0HJq0alXWz 7aJ06OiN7h20OJCutoXkY2tJuiVYIA4rDvVzCx/CFpTlVlx8iSGVkUrP5P/FQdcmWs9U 8Rja4xDD0YOTbmZ1FIAFqpdkzqSHjeRIDmDoj2zPVJrQwCIayJILksBrnIg5KOH/7j99 9X1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=t1bzEYeWCHH7bE9Xgd/EFWJC9x6xysVejji36TKeUl8=; b=X7uX75z+zSELQ7QpDOTfEBMn6GKAIH9AxkbxLL3j2aXdkiT8O5zNUDDbz6qHOZl5xP hD0I5wkzPOT8aYIkRTm3bV8yiJt1GUn9KW1IFrNV++YBO0f1Q5plzCgnpGPOIBJgS7wr lZKxrkQRu3o2XAkX7ZDBkXdHW9p7oxa/qJ8Rs5Q63xLzNLGjZ76UIkOjCUgdF8nEkCcy I470JLnD5rLczjhVW+PVtQkrdjVpqULg9D17zkgtJD+6yWPoPUfNGUN/NCa6kJiDrPOr viqdeI+22TOzCkRRoXiiGkvRYhD2YOiSi0kklmtzUZ6n3P3hYOkiAEyASX6iCiQmuufU 7b2w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX1Vk7V5BDLrhO59E4QT1ef0wgngYExIa4FbjjqH5SVxwFOo75t ZnSjg2qDnAP3maxgHUpcVCGHoyNehHjsonqx2GQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJBEsLircIcadQDij9CmP+d6Zmh/YL8/ftGdHRjPTnHwYstbJ8E6bJnKCfag7ZeRi/vZdZUisxIYVZGTcfevc= X-Received: by 2002:aca:2315:: with SMTP id e21mr12554505oie.147.1582558367018; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:32:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200212030152.GJ852@mcvoy.com> <20200224104010.2d8510cfe00da71439f5d05e@sjmulder.nl> <20200224151929.GJ30841@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20200224151929.GJ30841@mcvoy.com> From: Adam Thornton Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:32:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004d75bc059f54152f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [COFF] Fwd: Old and Tradition was V9 shell X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004d75bc059f54152f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I'd go to the local University that teaches Fortran and ask around." Aye, there's the rub. SIUE (Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville) still had a COBOL curriculum a decade ago, and they might still. They were fairly forthright in training people to go work at a lot of the stodgier St. Louis enterprises that still had a large COBOL footprint (AB, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Caterpillar, et al). By 2010, though, Express Scripts was trying hard to move away from its ANCHOR (COBOL) system and whatever-it-was-they-had running on VMS, and it sure felt like in the early 2010s STL was mostly Java EE. I would think that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed around as folk wisdom and ancient PIs (uh, Primary Investigators, not the detective kind) thrusting a dog-eared FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad students and snarling "RTFM!" than as actual college courses. That said, if you want to learn FORTRAN and don't mind working from modern FORTRAN back, I really was impressed by https://lfortran.org/ , and the ability to run it in a JupyterLab playground environment is fantastic for quick-turnaround experimentation. Plus Ond=C5=99ej =C4=8Cert=C3=ADk was fun to talk to and hang out with. On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:19 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:40:10AM +0100, Sijmen J. Mulder wrote: > > Larry McVoy wrote: > > > Fortran programmers are formally trained (at least I > > > was, there was a whole semester devoted to this) in accumulated error= s. > > > You did a deep dive into how to code stuff so that the error was > reduced > > > each time instead of increased. It has a lot to do with how floating > > > point works, it's not exact like integers are. > > > > I was unaware that there's formal training to be had around this but > > it's something I'd like to learn more about. Any recommendations on > > materials? I don't mind diving into Fortran itself either. > > My training was 35 years ago, I have no idea where to go look for this > stuff now. I googled and didn't find much. I'd go to the local > University that teaches Fortran and ask around. > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF@minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > --0000000000004d75bc059f54152f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"I'd go to the local=20 University that teaches Fortran and ask around."

<= div>Aye, there's the rub.

SIUE (Southern Illin= ois University at Edwardsville) still had a COBOL curriculum a decade ago, = and they might still.=C2=A0 They were fairly forthright in training people = to go work at a lot of the stodgier St. Louis enterprises that still had a = large COBOL footprint (AB, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Caterpillar, et al).=C2= =A0 By 2010, though, Express Scripts was trying hard to move away from its = ANCHOR (COBOL) system and whatever-it-was-they-had running on VMS, and it s= ure felt like in the early 2010s STL was mostly Java EE.

I would think that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed around as folk w= isdom and ancient PIs (uh, Primary Investigators, not the detective kind) t= hrusting a dog-eared FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad students and snarl= ing "RTFM!" than as actual college courses.

<= div>That said, if you want to learn FORTRAN and don't mind working from= modern FORTRAN back, I really was impressed by https://lfortran.org/ , and the ability to run it in a JupyterLa= b playground environment is fantastic for quick-turnaround experimentation.= =C2=A0 Plus Ond=C5=99ej =C4=8Cert=C3=ADk was = fun to talk to and hang out with.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:19 = AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wro= te:
On Mon, Feb = 24, 2020 at 10:40:10AM +0100, Sijmen J. Mulder wrote:
> Larry McVoy <lm@m= cvoy.com> wrote:
> > Fortran programmers are formally trained (at least I
> > was, there was a whole semester devoted to this) in accumulated e= rrors.
> > You did a deep dive into how to code stuff so that the error was = reduced
> > each time instead of increased.=C2=A0 It has a lot to do with how= floating
> > point works, it's not exact like integers are.
>
> I was unaware that there's formal training to be had around this b= ut
> it's something I'd like to learn more about. Any recommendatio= ns on
> materials? I don't mind diving into Fortran itself either.

My training was 35 years ago, I have no idea where to go look for this
stuff now.=C2=A0 I googled and didn't find much.=C2=A0 I'd go to th= e local
University that teaches Fortran and ask around.
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