From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5ea49b16 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 18:45:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0C4A89D732; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 04:45:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895F79D71D; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 04:45:14 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="InzvG7LE"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 053899D71D; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 04:45:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f179.google.com (mail-oi1-f179.google.com [209.85.167.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 843419D71C for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 04:45:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f179.google.com with SMTP id c1so2671427oiy.2 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:45:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=aE5QXXWfRLld65C0q8dX4fp1sneU8+qc38Df11JvxzA=; b=InzvG7LEGHcam3H+aAJq6g6L/Wino1ydpnMyJLfaPuhLN+/llwtpMNhbl2jnlgJcva axXTd3uHN8rhX+0aPCFxtnA0/Uhmiqjm5VRbwuW2i+Bo8oni6BqXyDsRQE7k6Dyqy3sn dFnArICtoO4Fcax3EJWS1PPz7ZN2G2eZep8ZeSfmiXnAhHsq6mIaY1KovzyY6Wwzjc/b /lvhXv1HR9Z66prLNcc6p1UNhc+ACDB8HCSeKicW8fgLlpTGSjlwj73HTd0ZdY/EKocQ hurVIMy7MFHYA03kgPQGA9qs96yzgIf87l06jepLSISBRKc2et+RIekJT3EnHa2QK9SS CyPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=aE5QXXWfRLld65C0q8dX4fp1sneU8+qc38Df11JvxzA=; b=jBGQwOTOgb1iDokvmZHeXGFkmeC6+Bv12meFPHIf9JdbE0LaUiAG+JhCVsc/IbKyO6 oHPTWQDQrZYn4yG/NwEfyxZmqNSu65wuuheGFPEaqmgcEmQEJhZ+rcc6qEiy3CQKs/PR mm2124cvtidGmdNVjuPMgi35xgKCDcsQe+tmf+jGZc3wZNBg42MBEPQZyC0adBrFCRGp 4wvmYdrJi75xcwTSvGRS03NAMUbXqfpnBQuOUp2xM+FEhbpId4/GcgyHijWFw4YbczoR kaLpPl7rtB6kPYxwKa+LjJivTzm4rlKmxXZsAK3yOiOFnFhjobHu/O8pDn+0Fy0nudUO SF3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0ETRdNv0Nl9Md41HyrQOVPAPT0NjIovc8TgE542Rfr6yfF26Qk TxG6Tfh9VpiiNK7PTT6l7BEh2cBc9aQN54U7HgTT5r3/9Ck= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtjBr2Pm9K1NHarWY//L3n7e0pHfYHQZI7oEJJqqfVBpOJ/0j/DBFBfLNFL9L9o/x6flUcCozAJcRewLWSeWRU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:fc4c:: with SMTP id a73mr1500872oii.147.1583261110624; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:45:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202003031815.023IFSlD493028@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202003031815.023IFSlD493028@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Adam Thornton Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:44:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015e56b059ff7b47c" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Command line options and complexity X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000015e56b059ff7b47c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I've heard people say that there isn't really any alternative to this kind of complexity for command line tools, but people who say that have never really tried the alternative, something like PowerShell. I have plenty of complaints about PowerShell, but passing structured data around and easily being able to operate on structured data without having to hold metadata information in my head so that I can pass the appropriate metadata to the right command line tools at that right places the pipeline isn't among my complaints3 . Somewhat disingenuous. I mean, yes, that's true, but on the other hand it means that you have to keep the "what Powershell commands operate on what structure" in your head instead, since you can no longer assume the pipelines to be a universal interface. Same basic problem as CMS Pipelines. Fantastically powerful, and nowhere near as easy to compose good functionality as "it's just a byte stream." Adam On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM Jon Steinhart wrote: > OK, this should be good for some conversation. A friend sent me this > link today: http://danluu.com/cli-complexity/ > --00000000000015e56b059ff7b47c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've heard people say = that there isn't really any alternative to this=20 kind of complexity for command line tools, but people who say that have=20 never really tried the alternative, something like PowerShell. I have=20 plenty of complaints about PowerShell, but passing structured data=20 around and easily being able to operate on structured data without=20 having to hold metadata information in my head so that I can pass the=20 appropriate metadata to the right command line tools at that right=20 places the pipeline isn't among my complaints3.

Somewhat disin= genuous.=C2=A0 I mean, yes, that's true, but on the other hand it means= that you have to keep the "what Powershell commands operate on what s= tructure" in your head instead, since you can no longer assume the pip= elines to be a universal interface.

Same basic pro= blem as CMS Pipelines.=C2=A0 Fantastically powerful, and nowhere near as ea= sy to compose good functionality as "it's just a byte stream."= ;

Adam

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM Jo= n Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com&= gt; wrote:
OK, t= his should be good for some conversation.=C2=A0 A friend sent me this
link today: http://danluu.com/cli-complexity/
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