From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id a6138216 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:50:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3ACDF9C2A3; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:50:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F93DAA; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:49:50 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="XzL7mgVx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D2F4893DAA; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:49:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f181.google.com (mail-oi1-f181.google.com [209.85.167.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F15D693DA9 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:49:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 14so10032692oir.12 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 14:49:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4jF8UMbFQMl9SoXzyyyBGffUL8vGowqLpE3dvck/Fgg=; b=XzL7mgVxZ0crlEYGT4qpEMLFSRRlo45L5WhMYpQYZZE0AgoiRmxzWcwtTcZzZQEyWm p05P8dZZHRs/NkEVUTxNxqKHg44LIN2LWnVSmoGjCqCC+xY5jBOU8ut6ovL2WUK1SHYj Rm2xgZs4A46Bk+LWTtQ5nGNLRyGp2IOLz58Crep94CRY5YYRPRLhrjHWvPZyuoYDB8ZC EOSzgqbogdK0dc9pc6Rv/XH2GotpOc1jV7EzXca7dbOc3lzBisbLIFOfbVAVwtPYsnha QfQW9kL2dvMr+3PTAjJA/Y5uCyKM/pux5UbM7SUPTvtDd1NkC79ql3vblZLlaLIUviVP iwPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4jF8UMbFQMl9SoXzyyyBGffUL8vGowqLpE3dvck/Fgg=; b=EkcDSKnzeNx6eWv9tWYeJCrWaikfdrq8plDoL+c1r4+w29L0pW89z4A4CHnJrNXGCe epajgrAakIuGER3XMQ9b0+IB7xa3CgF0XaCYhui1OHPwG06XFTJeAiB0kUM6Nb+QitdC tZGj5W8WesW/vT8EsWZ+lhmu6xQbO38m5n8flpyS60MvVMjDfV+A4cnEEC62CQ2j5Uby J7q5XDSgx1wCaiheav1kaLz9hpLEetgReuR1WzBMiWqgeZlSiZtKRzVx9IU5CiNO6Lam pcVNKo6peFEs9GmBA9cegL5bcNquD4030NRzkk3On18c0ltZc9kUsYn+6YONeUHebmFw 0w1A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWeJbjYiA68xua2s+v6ufnxu38hyBD0Li6Zu9AC+88nD9BtSLTn bmW1OSBxbTcLerHLv1Gu9bUiyXIcMlSaH0gnm5Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz01rFysLmztslaXKfnTBLQJ7nuBBk6lcom/F/mOpIqgRnrtxCbLuNkwLdKE3UZ3llFKKm9ES7jdvVkw9pphgI= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4c4a:: with SMTP id z71mr10006367oia.147.1573858181738; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 14:49:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org> <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Adam Thornton Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:49:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9788c05976a6975" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming education ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d9788c05976a6975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > arnold@skeeve.com writes: > Programming today is taught as if it consists of importing libraries > and gluing function calls together. > To be fair, this is basically what modern software development in enterprise settings is. Thing is, you don=E2=80=99t need a CS degree for t= hat; it=E2=80=99s a completely artificial barrier to entry. You need an apprenticeship. That=E2=80=99s even kind of acknowledged, in that by your = third job, no one cares where or if you went to school or what for. Anyway, my question for you all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners > leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art? Any of > you found a way to pass on your knowledge? > Find someone who=E2=80=99s interested and talk to them? I mean, that=E2=80= =99s kinda what this list is, right? The other part: it=E2=80=99s historically been a crap shoot whether the CS department at any given place came out of EE, in which case it was the bottom-up here=E2=80=99s a transistor, and here=E2=80=99s a flip-flop, and,= look, logic gates! Adders! Et cetera, or it came out of the math department and is a theory-heavy specialization of some very particular parts of discrete mathematics and combinatorics. --000000000000d9788c05976a6975 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
arnold@skeeve.com writes:
Programming today is taught as if = it consists of importing libraries
and gluing function calls together.

To be fair, this= is basically what modern software development in enterprise settings is.= =C2=A0 Thing is, you don=E2=80=99t need a CS degree for that; it=E2=80=99s = a completely artificial barrier to entry.=C2=A0 You need an apprenticeship.= =C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s even kind of acknowledged, in that by your third job,= no one cares where or if you went to school or what for.

Anyway, my question for you = all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners
leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art?=C2=A0 Any of=
you found a way to pass on your knowledge?

F= ind someone who=E2=80=99s interested and talk to them?=C2=A0 I mean, that= =E2=80=99s kinda what this list is, right?

The other part: it=E2=80=99s historically been a crap sh= oot whether the CS department at any given place came out of EE, in which c= ase it was the bottom-up here=E2=80=99s a transistor, and here=E2=80=99s a = flip-flop, and, look, logic gates!=C2=A0 Adders!=C2=A0 Et cetera, or it cam= e out of the math department and is a theory-heavy specialization of some v= ery particular parts of discrete mathematics and combinatorics.
=
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