From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22323 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2021 23:37:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Nov 2021 23:37:45 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 32CE79CF2D; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:37:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD8B94613; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:35:18 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="Y0mDMCos"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EDC6394613; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:35:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f181.google.com (mail-pg1-f181.google.com [209.85.215.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F3C794586 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:35:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 200so14067820pga.1 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:35:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4lcYTyLqQ+9iYtkxV/6UOcx0mB6IcWAevIYiUQZdbV4=; b=Y0mDMCoszXGu91M7QskA+JeeqB5xIcZaXVqY9d2yZwNSDwGSATVcaw199odsO+FMng nQEAs3rGvcvMXHwfjlWcFdW6kV0Mz6fPbG2mqpyZkzYGvQ2bu/0ziZxBUN3k88k82IHz 0j80PSdbIMFz/t3nWdv+dE4yxAZlgt/brLUHRoxFNftpX6F4+bTB2Cygt6wSLg2Uqv50 SdtlOdPDWJ0kqKG9BZNuoSr5QR4AEUnhppcZpJcEQwJn63vdOhUQzekk0iBCjWmKN0FH wvWtm/9PHWon/MxzISdYOIreXlb912zqY2L61lUm1BcGGejZbiPLFEP3VStV3BBspSnR VwlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4lcYTyLqQ+9iYtkxV/6UOcx0mB6IcWAevIYiUQZdbV4=; b=0sLZC8Y6xXuqn0pGl5sQvreYyXR2Pau31GnoTvhCtEEfmAOmiMPbd90ThuepNgCZcH 6XsZKl/t50eFw2cS1JYDtHiWQs6QP32Q6vfGCYOL6ZQZEy0zcegyOKpdox07DZWuyGhb 0vcqjF7ZnHL774WEhR8PlSEITiUGaoY3vz89Xh+T71gXq040xWIYQnR89TKi50FRLQvM fnQEBX6Xhs5YbH/9mwNH14BF8SIsZSgzjibw80lYV8PYQjl8yuEB8UOk9lGqNVNNs8FZ PbEBvSjqG9K5NQ92pcVPEpY2m5nVG5w9dg1PDLMvVK4bf+QIadpCsANdmEXagjvxUgGL x5sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530meCiHLONtyHLg4XBej6MbWrAKSey3iL+/VpIQpsMo7HcwpxWS ct69tXha5KAZwI5aojT5mjVSV9u/Fbphg7sctcoekdTA5jU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwgqqaAa2egO4Fnm6Ulb0s93TtKzvd+UVbuwzSWHAfLpyLERsSAClWbX4IOrFxX4TwGylDBQZYWkEXqp9OynGk= X-Received: by 2002:a63:82c7:: with SMTP id w190mr32622014pgd.117.1638142512230; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:35:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211128231203.3BCB818C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20211128231203.3BCB818C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Adam Thornton Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:35:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088752405d1e1c679" Subject: Re: [TUHS] A New History of Modern Computing - my thoughts X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000088752405d1e1c679 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Getting a bit far afield from Unixes, but A Quick Rundown Of Instruction Sets I Have Known, more or less in the order I learned them: 6502: you never forget your first love, and, sure, it's constrained, but it's elegant and concise and I still adore it. 68k: Lovely. I used it before I ever used the PDP-11, but in retrospect it's like the PDP-11 but more so. Roomy, comfortable, regular. Too bad it lost to x86 in the marketplace. 8051: I mean, OK, I get it, you need a low-cost embedded architecture and it's the 1980s, but...yuck. x86-and-descendents: the less said the better. Maybe I just don't like Intel's designs? SPARC: It's not bad. Having lots of registers is nice. But by the time it came along compilers were good enough that I never actually needed to use it in anger. S/360-and-descendents: The S/360 is OK, even nice, in a very 1960s IBM way. And then its evolution just KEPT adding ever more baroque filigrees onto it. Don't get me wrong, I love SIE, because I love VM, but even that is kind of a bag on the side, and by the time you get to System z...this is what happens when you don't start over from a clean sheet every so often. PDP-11: There's a very good reason it was used as a model architecture in coursework for decades. Also regular and comfortable. TI-99/4A (more or less TI 9900): I like microcode as much as anyone but honestly this is pretty silly here, folks. These days I'm kinda sorta poking at RISC-V and ARM. Not that I need to, but they seem nifty. Adam On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 4:15 PM Noel Chiappa wrote: > > The ++ operator appears to have been. > > One would expect that most people on this list would have read "The > Development of the C Language", by Dennis Ritchie, which makes perfectly > clear > (at 'More History') that the PDP-11 had nothing to do with it: > > Thompson went a step further by inventing the ++ and -- operators, which > increment or decrement; their prefix or postfix position determines > whether > the alteration occurs before or after noting the value of the operand. > They > were not in the earliest versions of B, but appeared along the way. > People > often guess that they were created to use the auto-increment and > auto-decrement address modes provided by the DEC PDP-11 on which C and > Unix > first became popular. This is historically impossible, since there was no > PDP-11 when B was developed. > > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > > thereby alleviating the need for Ken to chime in (although they do allow a > very efficient implementation of it). > > Too much to hope for, I guess. > > Noel > > --00000000000088752405d1e1c679 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Getting a bit far afield from Unixes, but A Quick Run= down Of Instruction Sets I Have Known, more or less in the order I learned = them:

6502: you never forget your first love, and,= sure, it's constrained, but it's elegant and concise and I still a= dore it.
68k: Lovely.=C2=A0 I used it before I ever used the PDP-= 11, but in retrospect it's like the PDP-11 but more so.=C2=A0 Roomy, co= mfortable, regular.=C2=A0 Too bad it lost to x86 in the marketplace.
8051: I mean, OK, I get it, you need a low-cost embedded architectu= re and it's the 1980s, but...yuck.
x86-and-descendents: t= he less said the better.=C2=A0 Maybe I just don't like Intel's desi= gns?
SPARC: It's not bad.=C2=A0 Having lots of registers = is nice.=C2=A0 But by the time it came along compilers were good enough tha= t I never actually needed to use it in anger.
S/360-and-descenden= ts: The S/360 is OK, even nice, in a very 1960s IBM way.=C2=A0 And then its= evolution just KEPT adding ever more baroque filigrees onto it.=C2=A0 Don&= #39;t get me wrong, I love SIE, because I love VM, but even that is kind of= a bag on the side, and by the time you get to System z...this is what happ= ens when you don't start over from a clean sheet every so often.
<= div>
PDP-11: There's a very good reason it was used as a model arch= itecture in coursework for decades.=C2=A0 Also regular and comfortable.
TI-99/4A (more or less TI 9900): I like microcode as much as anyone = but honestly this is pretty silly here, folks.

These days I'm kinda sorta poking at RISC-V and ARM.=C2=A0 Not that I = need to, but they seem nifty.

Adam

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 4:15 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The ++ opera= tor appears to have been.

One would expect that most people on this list would have read "The Development of the C Language", by Dennis Ritchie, which makes perfect= ly clear
(at 'More History') that the PDP-11 had nothing to do with it:

=C2=A0 Thompson went a step further by inventing the ++ and -- operators, w= hich
=C2=A0 increment or decrement; their prefix or postfix position determines = whether
=C2=A0 the alteration occurs before or after noting the value of the operan= d. They
=C2=A0 were not in the earliest versions of B, but appeared along the way. = People
=C2=A0 often guess that they were created to use the auto-increment and
=C2=A0 auto-decrement address modes provided by the DEC PDP-11 on which C a= nd Unix
=C2=A0 first became popular. This is historically impossible, since there w= as no
=C2=A0 PDP-11 when B was developed.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/= chist.html

thereby alleviating the need for Ken to chime in (although they do allow a<= br> very efficient implementation of it).

Too much to hope for, I guess.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Noel

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