From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29864 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2023 00:42:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Mar 2023 00:42:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD26434AC; Thu, 2 Mar 2023 10:42:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9038434AA for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2023 10:42:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id ck15so61477200edb.0 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2023 16:42:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1677717725; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=d6ZEwbKPFNqT7mQidMt8I4uE88FcUwVqPzQ2jJ3aB5s=; b=NGuy8znn6cDU/juaaXsjFXiKpkQnJZPZUFP2257M5aRCqyTmgFI5WrfwNGF+C31G7D jtgCBG0gr7FOas4Cf1g/9jI0kPY1+euwSoL19l6P9cKkR2andZaXF+/Y2Dd4UXhTzToa ACTr/fP8VdfajYsCBtC97JQjvgRhKr8LtxYAt01eFWnGK1PM8xVzhooGbeI+EanapsW0 GeO3+oAM6xQAOlKvg/eFv+aOSpgA3rujRKP7rYFY9KOdQfPCsoaAXAUl5aLfFdqte+Qj ExPIEfe8tIn7p5YD0D7lpte/xUjN35OeLOo2LzabYxwyq4Tix1nv+xB4NS19KeJKvZpN JIHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1677717725; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=d6ZEwbKPFNqT7mQidMt8I4uE88FcUwVqPzQ2jJ3aB5s=; b=JblvWzu0MA4waQbgudc8S1lWbIoD1Y3x+Y2RR4ZHtXBLygStHhJY/lb//Wk5nFvn3Y IXAHPo7E1P9BrDrBx984KnjBbm/xLo/zryQwFT+WFtXi8z02lWmxX+PuD1zQoXJ/UJ8S 8cn989hYNCftk/fRLOdbccJlHl0LIbixkhrWI1rSJuoAoCymb+HL/x4pbZt6RC86dfVK utCGXfddrvm49jIYeLP3oJ2jvxABDXW5C5ttpRta6tvBlx2EJGfbIT/4SCjtdNKNLv/D wx+/05whpQHunsHcyTNVwzY4fYd8E6wYQeddSGd7Ll7vuEYwFQEwS8E7J/OQvvnPDfeb X9vQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKW/CDnl7MK9zSBVgYNiLm4lW+0DYl6Aui4VNfq2902WnX63uH6e AF9wMWTb8tZg/2PKwCXbOFMEDzogNUWLQvCkyvBQT8jE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/bZJJpZ4BtIVekkZ6rmLmjqZI5/OCJByxtE/dW82syvVFukNupdITdueDMZgD1MLSdrobPTWy1v6NcSsAl+ek= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ab46:0:b0:4ac:b8aa:3ffc with SMTP id t6-20020a50ab46000000b004acb8aa3ffcmr4702351edc.4.1677717724797; Wed, 01 Mar 2023 16:42:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2cfef728-ef06-20e4-e29e-9a0c83af8334@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 17:41:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Alan D. Salewski" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005203405f5e019e1" Message-ID-Hash: 3AFZOA65SAUMNB57SANCGCJL5ANAAG7R X-Message-ID-Hash: 3AFZOA65SAUMNB57SANCGCJL5ANAAG7R X-MailFrom: athornton@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "TUHS (The Unix Heritage Society)" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Unix Systems Administration Texts List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000005203405f5e019e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I liked the Frisch and Limoncelli/Hogan books. Nemeth less so. Adam On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Alan D. Salewski wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023, at 21:34, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 8:38=E2=80=AFPM Will Senn = wrote: > >> I'm curious about the experience of those of y'all who actually used > them. Were there any early standouts and why did they stand out? > > > > This is not going to be popular, but... > > > >> Nemeth, E., Synder, G., & Seebass, S. (1989). UNIX System > Administration Handbook (5th edition is another fatty) > > > > This book gave me some terrible advice when I was very young and > impressionable. > > > > In there somewhere it says something about not doing something unless > > you're prepared to do it right lest one spend more time working around > > a work-around than one would have spent just doing it well in the > > first place. > > > > The conclusion is, of course, true, but the admonition ignores all > > sorts of externalities, like waiting users. And in some cases it could > > really lead to paralysis > [...] > > > Hopefully nowadays we have a better appreciation of the power of > > incrementalism; those grand plans for the perfect system rarely come > > to fruition. It's better to be flexible and make small, impactful > > changes along the way towards a better system, always being mindful of > > and tamping down encroaching entropy. > > > > - Dan C. > > Yeah, good or bad advice at just the right time can have quite an > impact. > > In the under-celebrated "Minimal Perl"[0], Tim Maher notes in the > last paragraph of section 5.8: > > In your own career, I'd advise you to develop an appreciation an > appreciation and an aptitude for both the /quick-and-dirty/ and > /elegant-and-formal/ styles of programming, and to cultivate the > ability to produce either kind on demand, as circumstances > warrant. > > > Seems obvious, in retrospect -- but of course many things do with > the benefit of hindsight. For me, that articulated something that I > sensed was the right way to approach things, but was contrary to > much of the one-dimensional advice I had received up to that > point. It pairs well with one of the "lesser tenets" noted by > Gancarz: "Look for the 90 percent solution"[1]. > > In my own career, I've found I can often use the quick-and-dirty > approach to buy myself time to afford the "detour to build the > tools"[2] that could not be justified (to others) up-front. And > nothing gets it done faster than a shell script. Five or ten scrappy > N-line shell scripts that get the job done sub-optimally, and > lacking any real thought toward usability or generality buy time to > build better tools (usually more, better-written shell scripts). And > sometimes a scrappy script is "good enough" (for years, even). > > -Al > > > [0] Minimal Perl for Unix People and Linux People > by Tim Maher > Forward by Damian Conway > Manning 2007 > p. 175 > ISBN-10: 1-932394-50-8 > > [1] The Unix Philosophy > by Mike Gancarz > Digital Press 1995 > p. 117 > ISBN-10: 1-55558-123-4 > > [2] [McIlroy78] The Bell System Technical Journal. Bell Laboratories. > M. D. McIlroy, E. N. Pinson, and B. A. Tague. > "Unix Time-Sharing System Forward". 1978. 57 (6, part 2). p. 1902. > https://archive.org/details/bstj57-6-1899/page/n3/mode/2up > > Also quoted in ESR's "The Art of Unix Programming" > Addison-Wesley 2004 > p. 12 > ISBN-13: 9-780131-429017 > https://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html > > -- > a l a n d. s a l e w s k i > ads@salewski.email > salewski@att.net > https://github.com/salewski > --00000000000005203405f5e019e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I liked the Frisch and Limoncelli/Hogan books.=C2=A0 = Nemeth less so.

Adam

On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 = at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Alan D. Salewski <ads@salewski.email> wrote:


On Tue, Feb 28, 2023, at 21:34, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 8:38=E2=80=AFPM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:=
>> I'm curious about the experience of those of y'all who act= ually used them. Were there any early standouts and why did they stand out?=
>
> This is not going to be popular, but...
>
>> Nemeth, E., Synder, G., & Seebass, S. (1989). UNIX System Admi= nistration Handbook (5th edition is another fatty)
>
> This book gave me some terrible advice when I was very young and impre= ssionable.
>
> In there somewhere it says something about not doing something unless<= br> > you're prepared to do it right lest one spend more time working ar= ound
> a work-around than one would have spent just doing it well in the
> first place.
>
> The conclusion is, of course, true, but the admonition ignores all
> sorts of externalities, like waiting users. And in some cases it could=
> really lead to paralysis
[...]

> Hopefully nowadays we have a better appreciation of the power of
> incrementalism; those grand plans for the perfect system rarely come > to fruition. It's better to be flexible and make small, impactful<= br> > changes along the way towards a better system, always being mindful of=
> and tamping down encroaching entropy.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.

Yeah, good or bad advice at just the right time can have quite an
impact.

In the under-celebrated "Minimal Perl"[0], Tim Maher notes in the=
last paragraph of section 5.8:
<quote>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In your own career, I'd advise you to develop an apprecia= tion an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appreciation and an aptitude for both the /quick-and-dirty/ a= nd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /elegant-and-formal/ styles of programming, and to cultivate = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ability to produce either kind on demand, as circumstances =C2=A0 =C2=A0 warrant.
</quote>

Seems obvious, in retrospect -- but of course many things do with
the benefit of hindsight. For me, that articulated something that I
sensed was the right way to approach things, but was contrary to
much of the one-dimensional advice I had received up to that
point. It pairs well with one of the "lesser tenets" noted by
Gancarz: "Look for the 90 percent solution"[1].

In my own career, I've found I can often use the quick-and-dirty
approach to buy myself time to afford the "detour to build the
tools"[2] that could not be justified (to others) up-front. And
nothing gets it done faster than a shell script. Five or ten scrappy
N-line shell scripts that get the job done sub-optimally, and
lacking any real thought toward usability or generality buy time to
build better tools (usually more, better-written shell scripts). And
sometimes a scrappy script is "good enough" (for years, even).
-Al


[0] Minimal Perl for Unix People and Linux People
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by Tim Maher
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Forward by Damian Conway
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Manning 2007
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 p. 175
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISBN-10: 1-932394-50-8

[1] The Unix Philosophy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by Mike Gancarz
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Digital Press 1995
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 p. 117
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISBN-10: 1-55558-123-4

[2] [McIlroy78] The Bell System Technical Journal. Bell Laboratories.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 M. D. McIlroy, E. N. Pinson, and B. A. Tague.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Unix Time-Sharing System Forward". 1978. 57 (6, pa= rt 2). p. 1902.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://archive.org/details/= bstj57-6-1899/page/n3/mode/2up

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also quoted in ESR's "The Art of Unix Programming&qu= ot;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Addison-Wesley 2004
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 p. 12
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISBN-13: 9-780131-429017
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.catb.org/~esr/wr= itings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html

--
a l a n=C2=A0 =C2=A0d.=C2=A0 =C2=A0s a l e w s k i
ads@salewski.email
salewski@att.net<= br> https://github.com/salewski
--00000000000005203405f5e019e1--