From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD61229B7 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:52:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDAE4334E; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 13:52:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D30A74334D for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 13:52:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2fabb837ddbso28907151fa.1 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2024 20:52:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1727668357; x=1728273157; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=x/Mve2Pbj3eY078F3Mn+7HGXgZh4cMPQTfjGS75ECno=; b=XIMLaLotAhdU1kU1rq+uVTfRmc3Zs4cN9XFysQ3ACFRG0x0RbMRqUIFFHG7tOizTXj po03riomCzEY3wDC7wq41PSg+/en1COMuQ1hXF7izyx8m6oB8WCOPgdD5M02tn6DLggV 85Mpx+QaDFL52yif2+7ZVIcD5HXm6USztrRMGi0+ZpCaaav4cAYEtCXhC0cmwoSiB6Xh EPTLnmrXdp/O1B3RttleNe1eSV7Y8jNMlXVHAE9AbW7EX5OlpPYC65dwFRvleoZWyQfo rOpAUYJ2d1u5bovdoSSfpy4E3IP4YUNYZrMRCXhFZvh/EkK5HA1UVTpJytOAyNecZFEY NkjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1727668357; x=1728273157; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=x/Mve2Pbj3eY078F3Mn+7HGXgZh4cMPQTfjGS75ECno=; b=hOOq3JDfgM6C74Cwz5ClZ+qWzlCRsUOdgtkRwd7u4wI9gXX0fkD17eqJsPIUHTT50o yIAQwDUDo0mSs5aprxa0HcFeJAzEHz9jxH7mHhXy7SImGwO97Y6UjOxEwALQHZ2D45p7 zrYWuRq4MjFnRSIKKavOyIE3StquEQgTGh9Ln93SEqqE7SRwz0z7rOKKYlBVXdSqDIzZ zJXirEtT4xJaLehPMDtlAW8ztMjdVt1eYrir7Enk2BNPDwtxN0rfdJBq1lasppIBqJPi CmFxBOX4aHxOIZohg6jU9u1tbuTYlklCKQ503w+obFt/vjvKGBDtK3ob1cWYLHJXvFsV +yUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwsS+Qu4w9+9uj35hUViB6paerowbEI+X0erFtzBFRCj6fwsOJP RMr8CKAnKBYYVT7FB6Od/ZHwwEf1t08yZPTo81AR1XaSpb1znZ2HPOVvfveasxSJXTfjU7ArweY 7uVeiAX4S6Gk1SoDjOpR8vJM7kzr7YA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG/JUIc0eHpPauXzrBbwPFAb21/TLZrP5cetPBdB3Xh+bKR6Is8rckbNreFQSjCDshGWVEHn/L6MCZUkcZ19oY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4e02:0:b0:2f7:712d:d08 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2f9d3e5ac7fmr49083391fa.23.1727668356637; Sun, 29 Sep 2024 20:52:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240930003630.GE17434@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: ron minnich Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 20:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Luther Johnson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afeae206234e2254" Message-ID-Hash: RZZWVIIMQD2HA4XHNBENUSM3W7CL4VCI X-Message-ID-Hash: RZZWVIIMQD2HA4XHNBENUSM3W7CL4VCI X-MailFrom: rminnich@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Minimum Array Sizes in 16 bit C (was Maximum) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000afeae206234e2254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Data point. I hope this is not too far out of TUHS scope, but ... you asked= . In 2010, we at sandia journeyed to Usenix to take Russ's course on Go. At that time, we had created megatux, all written in C, all based on earlier HPC work at LANL, that allowed us to run 80,000 or so Windows VMs on a 400 node cluster, and from there run real malware to study it (and, in one case, fix a bug :-). We got done Russ's course, and on the way home, I said "we're moving it all to Go." Nobody disagreed. We never once regretted that decision. On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 6:47=E2=80=AFPM Luther Johnson wrote: > 'Go' is also a pretty C-like advanced C kind of thing. What do Go > writers think of it vs. C, for safety, reliability, clarity of > expression, etc. ? > > On 09/29/2024 06:09 PM, Luther Johnson wrote: > > C# addresses some of the things being discussed here. I've used it, I > > don't care for it all that much, I prefer straight, not-at-all modern > > C, but I think there are probably a few dialects over the years > > (Objective C ?) that have addressed some of these desires for a > > "better C, but not C++". Do others here have comments on these > > inspired by C, kind of C-like, but with a few other computer science > > components, thrown into the language machine ? > > > > On 09/29/2024 05:36 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > >> It doesn't have to be that way, C could be evolved, I built a very C > >> like language (to the point that one of my engineers, who hated the > >> new language on principle, fixed a bug in some diffs that flew by, > >> he thought he was fixing a bug in C). No pointers, reference counted > >> garbage collection, pass by value or reference, switch values could be > >> anything, values, variables, regular expressions, etc. > >> > >> If I had infinite energy and money, I'd fund a gcc dialect of that C. > >> Alas, I don't. But C is very fixable. > >> > >> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 09:56:47AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote: > >>> I'm saying the exact opposite: they are unavoidably unsafe. > >>> > >>> -rob > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 8:21???AM Rich Salz > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> C and C++ have become non-portable and dangerously insecure, as > >>>> well as > >>>>> often very surprising to the point that the US government arguing > >>>>> against > >>>>> using them. > >>>>> > >>>> I thought their main arguments were to use memory-safe languages. > >>>> Are you > >>>> saying the C language can be as safe s go, rust, etc., by language > >>>> design? > >>>> (I don't think you are, but the sentence I quoted kinda implies > >>>> that, at > >>>> least to me.) > >>>> > > > > --000000000000afeae206234e2254 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Data point. I=C2=A0hope this is not too far out of TUHS sc= ope, but ... you asked.
In 2010, we at sandia journeyed to Usenix to ta= ke Russ's course on Go.=C2=A0

At that time, we= had created megatux, all written in C, all based on earlier=C2=A0HPC work = at LANL, that allowed us to run 80,000 or so Windows VMs on a 400 node clus= ter, and from there run real malware to study it (and, in one case, fix a b= ug :-).

We got done Russ's course, and on the = way home, I said "we're moving it all to Go." Nobody disagree= d. We never once regretted that decision.

On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 6:47= =E2=80=AFPM Luther Johnson <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
= 'Go' is also a pretty C-like advanced C kind of thing. What do Go writers think of it vs. C, for safety, reliability, clarity of
expression, etc. ?

On 09/29/2024 06:09 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> C# addresses some of the things being discussed here. I've used it= , I
> don't care for it all that much, I prefer straight, not-at-all mod= ern
> C, but I think there are probably a few dialects over the years
> (Objective C ?) that have addressed some of these desires for a
> "better C, but not C++". Do others here have comments on the= se
> inspired by C, kind of C-like, but with a few other computer science > components, thrown into the language machine ?
>
> On 09/29/2024 05:36 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> It doesn't have to be that way, C could be evolved, I built a = very C
>> like language (to the point that one of my engineers, who hated th= e
>> new language on principle, fixed a bug in some diffs that flew by,=
>> he thought he was fixing a bug in C).=C2=A0 No pointers, reference= counted
>> garbage collection, pass by value or reference, switch values coul= d be
>> anything, values, variables, regular expressions, etc.
>>
>> If I had infinite energy and money, I'd fund a gcc dialect of = that C.
>> Alas, I don't.=C2=A0 But C is very fixable.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 09:56:47AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote:
>>> I'm saying the exact opposite: they are unavoidably unsafe= .
>>>
>>> -rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 8:21???AM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> C and C++ have become non-portable and dangerously insecur= e, as
>>>> well as
>>>>> often very surprising to the point that the US governm= ent arguing
>>>>> against
>>>>> using them.
>>>>>
>>>> I thought their main arguments were to use memory-safe lan= guages.
>>>> Are you
>>>> saying the C language can be as safe s go, rust, etc., by = language
>>>> design?
>>>> (I don't think you are, but the sentence I quoted kind= a implies
>>>> that, at
>>>> least to me.)
>>>>
>

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