From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4030 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2022 15:05:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Sep 2022 15:05:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FB74178B; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 01:05:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f42.google.com (mail-lf1-f42.google.com [209.85.167.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CB6741787 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 01:05:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f42.google.com with SMTP id p7so28199678lfu.3 for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 08:05:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=upOSkKpU0Q5MLpY+gSDze4gEahIf83X7KpZsTVFPW1o=; b=lp67WyKg9OEq3HHvXnPzPHQx2sIC5huCqqZCyNabWkjjKkf1KsutuoKpBPYqLleX7c tNVqZBecoAsLdiAn0jZ1erwPBTZ/LaVmJpB54j6reBmVSlLb+oSP4ma8BOM+QfC5fHcg dtKuNgFOhzePAuq5bpwsUapR04Uo+0aU+FTc+G0RJkEEllv6rjoNKu7WzmHKjsFa7lWl qBVG92q+6JmrJEon06QVdaQ95XumWO/yMv4sUjGrCn/dUvCtghuknBaW3fyVogpIvh8K m0gYqxd5vze9f8m6WSHnEyv9DA0bwrrkQkRVuhPC5IYYbdT1/9xSEPB3TQeTozyO5KSy v2tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=upOSkKpU0Q5MLpY+gSDze4gEahIf83X7KpZsTVFPW1o=; b=stHN/XD4HesXw4axe1Z4T6uvUJQoXcBPbP2nlw345O9ViD2M4ndY8AYXweCrJ88Lg7 wm3f5DoY6+IpDUlgHSIH+1HpTtVZPbDZoWjrV9ZUDwi4NgZmA8NFZbfQeFGC3S6vuVsJ UVdY5xIgv2aV+zJteVaBwsMfAA4t9X/za2dwxOho6mp5cju6NjqQ8cClHxIZDT73Ee3U HPO6eWfWqK3RqwCzM2MqzXFeknY7v48gLg2vFJoihMfU/4cK09R9feHwmg7fPqMY26qC J8RKkH+k7F87+e4YfV5DEXMh/yNl3t8+6NhQiXvp8d/sU06lt1bbm4PBFrwOYtSm2yp5 HzqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo3V3pd2hrySZbQDKMguXFEF+Cz13p6SARj+ueGpydBFwcCwT7NM muKjpgeO6vvP/8y+coDbWoi03vkIvCx9tf27VGicp8VI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4MAHD1pACrKop77yR30+h8pxhodbPGclONR7Nre8fNYry8zXNm2I3FXrlo921usNIJ1qeBPtvPLYFgYUmk5zA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3ba:b0:497:a116:3f86 with SMTP id v26-20020a05651203ba00b00497a1163f86mr2757383lfp.142.1662649458584; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 08:04:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220907145631.GN31856@mcvoy.com> <8DDF5A51-AABF-41AF-993C-4D087903BDC9@canb.auug.org.au> In-Reply-To: From: ron minnich Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2022 08:04:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d733d05e82bbe8e" Message-ID-Hash: OKSTFY3F6NLJQQFXBYJ6ZOH5HZKXOQVH X-Message-ID-Hash: OKSTFY3F6NLJQQFXBYJ6ZOH5HZKXOQVH X-MailFrom: rminnich@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Steve Jenkin , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Has this been discussed on-list? How Unix changed Software. List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005d733d05e82bbe8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember a comment someone at UDEL made when we'd been working with v6 for a few years, starting in 1976. "v6 is fast as hell but it has its bugs.= " It was a big deal, at least in 1976, to get through a week without a crash of some sort. That's why we had all those pre-fsck programs for looking for problems: icheck and ncheck existed for a reason. The -11 also had its corners, e.g. alignment traps to snag the unwary, and hardware that, in several cases, did not completely honor the unibus spec. If the hardware has limits, or corners, and your kernel crashes because of it, is it a bug that you did not accommodate the undocumented hardware design? Given that you can't really go at your machine with a soldering iron (well, not always; we all did some of that back then) it's arguably your bug. Unix code was great, far better than a lot of what was out there, certainly on the -11, but to say any of it shipped bug free certainly does not match my recollection. On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 7:43 AM Paul Winalski wrote: > On 9/7/22, Steve Jenkin wrote: > > Would your folk ship code with a list of outstanding bug reports? > > ** Everyone ** ships code with known bugs. If you insist on getting > things perfect your code never gets out the door. At some point you > have to decide that what you have is good enough to be released. > > The trick is to decide what constitutes "good enough". Some of it > depends on your target application and user base. What's good enough > for Hunt the Wumpus may well not be good enough for process control > software for a pacemaker or nuclear reactor. And if you're producing > software for commercial sale, marketing and business factors enter the > mix as well. > > > I don=E2=80=99t think Ken & Dennis did that. > > OTOH I'm certain that they did. > > -Paul W. > --0000000000005d733d05e82bbe8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember a comment someone at UDEL made when we'd be= en working with v6 for a few years, starting in 1976. "v6 is fast as h= ell but it has its bugs."

It was a big deal, at lea= st in 1976, to get through a week without a crash of some sort. That's = why we had all those pre-fsck programs for looking for problems: icheck and= ncheck=C2=A0existed for a reason.=C2=A0

The -11 a= lso had its corners, e.g. alignment traps to snag the unwary, and hardware = that, in several cases, did not completely honor the unibus spec. If the ha= rdware has limits, or corners, and your kernel crashes because of it, is it= a bug that you did not accommodate the undocumented hardware design? Given= that you can't really go at your machine with a soldering iron (well, = not always; we all did some of that back then) it's arguably your bug.<= /div>

Unix code was great, far better than a lot of what= was out there, certainly on the -11, but to say any of it shipped bug free= certainly does not match my recollection.



On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 7:43 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/7/22, Steve Jenkin <sjenkin@canb.auug= .org.au> wrote:
> Would your folk ship code with a list of outstanding bug reports?

** Everyone ** ships code with known bugs.=C2=A0 If you insist on getting things perfect your code never gets out the door.=C2=A0 At some point you have to decide that what you have is good enough to be released.

The trick is to decide what constitutes "good enough".=C2=A0 Some= of it
depends on your target application and user base.=C2=A0 What's good eno= ugh
for Hunt the Wumpus may well not be good enough for process control
software for a pacemaker or nuclear reactor.=C2=A0 And if you're produc= ing
software for commercial sale, marketing and business factors enter the
mix as well.

> I don=E2=80=99t think Ken & Dennis did that.

OTOH I'm certain that they did.

-Paul W.
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