From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1698 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 22:52:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 22:52:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90024262F; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:51:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com (mail-qt1-f179.google.com [209.85.160.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A524442629 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:51:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id w3so3135294qts.7 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:51:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Nh+TR6JSwEzV6QpoviRH1Dr07hZypzywdTnLJ4nDin8=; b=UAbTB52+7fQITlpxvb1Q1dM1RB/LzjntQXcZJJr1kuzYiTWG+xWIAz0NaPNlbzJm35 yLO0rR+Bk+z42DUNKkv8SLtER3uaG2namgBJLTgza/Yh6cad26cU0o4l6KfPxihBOA83 4Pzyk+4yxXs9zlGtQaLbUidLyhyT1egYcm6muBtP+XHfZe8DRE+Aw6Ik7TVsBr154pOY ZeC2SfnUedHlk61u43XUw0LS0SMPzomH/2bBP2BmO8+Vg3Zp8OZeA6fCRFueDE2feefS dZVIBa1MuIqgOe8ypjDFIdfUCOtuFjelXBKujt2sJAJaTY7ENE71R7ODKvlJMzPddtKw MX1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Nh+TR6JSwEzV6QpoviRH1Dr07hZypzywdTnLJ4nDin8=; b=0Lbdqu5jIstr2mNtqE7kk5ckxYIXhni2rHPUZYkVeDYg21HZW7CbvuY5thr8cEVifP xCs74QSTWUDz5Ecu5aC5tgj3Ibe/KUUkQ0felXmFE8Y69el8s616rT7+jQVCKzuBnVhi 019QgLdTqOvOVmsVT6XdCnBlmQQVynTmIzE9dz4x16ahKXbvZrk9bnRKKKd09ZTNslV8 QS9y0a61rGzWMS39GCyNSJkX4vqvyGpNequrq0Imo+gm3dU2AFzjcL8cY+o2YrdRLxzo zi74NWmbbrLwWoO/mNlYC1O3D62ocNAzcdWMcYOe3bF7IG3V63FAPnTThOMZW/bUHQme GXxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKV/q6pIa07ZCQpvkHAHo5eWnLL6WbIovEnxPbFzu5MN0p9qyJn+ t4SSDbq5YLENt4GYid1idHxR2C3oC80jEyDq5UGPJ1ePndM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8MQdPuciTtceN7OZzSoKpnHN3YtA93Nh9c0RUxj5FTHCHBqm/HsZ2R3XlpvW8QAHN8hq2DYtJBKmk8oszfjnc= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5753:0:b0:3b8:6abd:e1f8 with SMTP id 19-20020ac85753000000b003b86abde1f8mr411282qtx.483.1675119048530; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:50:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130212434.GL12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: ron minnich Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:50:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d81f5105f3830b97" Message-ID-Hash: A5KIJJAW6NMHEA7JML5VNXRP7L3SNLIP X-Message-ID-Hash: A5KIJJAW6NMHEA7JML5VNXRP7L3SNLIP X-MailFrom: rminnich@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d81f5105f3830b97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It's a long list of ideas that came from Plan 9 into Unix. One of those wonderful plan 9 ideas, the cpu command, with all it implies, has new life: github.com/u-root/cpu. Several companies are using the cpu command as the basis of light weight VM and edge environments, for example. Also, rfork went into freebsd ca 1996, and it's still there. Al Viro, IIRC, put some stuff into his VFS ca 1998 that specifically came from plan 9, including private mounts. We used them at LANL to build private name spaces for cluster nodes, over 9p, as part of Clustermatic. Some core ideas of controlling subsystems via writable synthetics also made it in. And on and on. On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 2:17 PM Rob Pike wrote: > There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in the AT&T > Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. The early demo > disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but if not, there was > simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full source. > > Plan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would > become a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It > only "failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factors there, > including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for people to > have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completing window UI on a > mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T lawyers refusing to > think realistically about open source (about as polite a way I can express > a multiyear fight that never ended, only fizzled into stalemate). > > As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still talking about > its ideas 30+ years on. > > -rob > > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >> > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >> > > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar >> with Unix >> > > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a >> different >> > > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental >> models >> > > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a >> widespread >> > > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but >> > > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. >> > > > > >> > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old >> stuff. >> > > > >> > > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if >> > > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? >> > > >> > > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not >> invalidate >> > > people's knowledge while innovating. >> > > >> > > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently and >> > > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. That's >> > > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try your >> > > new stuff. >> > > >> > > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher barrier, >> > > much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that and >> > > that means other people ignore their work. >> > > >> > > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it. >> > >> > Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see _why_ >> > people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The system >> > had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of >> > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then >> > that's a shame. >> >> It's certainly not just job control. I think it's a combo of being >> unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already >> pretty far along. >> >> The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people >> to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable >> gain. Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy. >> -- >> --- >> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat >> > --000000000000d81f5105f3830b97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's a long list of ideas that came from Plan 9 into U= nix.=C2=A0

One of those wonderful plan 9 ideas, the cpu = command, with all it implies, has new life: github.com/u-root/cpu. Several companies are using the cpu co= mmand as the basis of light weight VM and edge environments, for example.= =C2=A0

Also, rfork went into freebsd ca 1996, and it'= ;s still there. Al Viro, IIRC, put some stuff into his VFS ca 1998 that spe= cifically came from plan 9, including private mounts. We used them at LANL = to build private name spaces for cluster nodes, over 9p, as part of Cluster= matic.=C2=A0

Some core ideas of controlling = subsystems via writable=C2=A0synthetics also made it in.=C2=A0
And on and on.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 2:17 P= M Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in the A= T&T Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. The ear= ly demo disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but if not= , there was simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full source.

=
P= lan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would becom= e a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It only &q= uot;failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factors ther= e, including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for people to= have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completing wind= ow UI on a mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T lawyers= refusing to think realistically about open source (about as polite a way I= can express a multiyear fight that never ended, only fizzled into stalemat= e).

As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still talki= ng about its ideas 30+ years on.

-rob


On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24= AM Larry McVoy <lm@mc= voy.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wro= te:
> > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were= familiar with Unix
> > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in t= rying out a different
> > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their= existing mental models
> > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.<= br> > > > > >
> > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't s= ucceed as a widespread
> > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or i= ncapable, but
> > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9= .
> > > >
> > > > Many people make that mistake.=C2=A0 New stuff instead = of extend old stuff.
> > >
> > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we in= novate if
> > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come befor= e?
> >
> > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not = invalidate
> > people's knowledge while innovating.
> >
> > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently= and
> > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate.=C2= =A0 That's
> > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try y= our
> > new stuff.
> >
> > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is= a higher barrier,
> > much, much higher, than "extend".=C2=A0 People frequent= ly ignore that and
> > that means other people ignore their work.
> >
> > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll dro= p it.
>
> Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to s= ee _why_
> people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The sy= stem
> had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of<= br> > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then > that's a shame.

It's certainly not just job control.=C2=A0 I think it's a combo of = being
unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already
pretty far along.

The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people
to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable
gain.=C2=A0 Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy.
--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
--000000000000d81f5105f3830b97--