From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31534 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2023 20:46:34 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Feb 2023 20:46:34 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E745E43275; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 06:46:29 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1677530790; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=7NCAZywrs6cqlyRb2u7wfwUq8Pao+0JMiGA48h1w0sk=; b=YQbtw+A46BzUkLwUKgN4VwEu8O2EwFMSnix/Oal3okvqIwzrelXuxEK8Xy7y+01sWLhc/9 brflB7iU101BKUT6R+m5JGuB++EvgmXpxTOfmFuZRNOrTjhXsSSGh+j49jn1PQTBgANIJc wgtYXXjkkiqG4lnkKdTdN8pLH2FzGVU= Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch (mail-4324.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.24]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD47743256 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 06:46:21 +1000 (AEST) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 20:46:10 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1677530779; x=1677789979; bh=7NCAZywrs6cqlyRb2u7wfwUq8Pao+0JMiGA48h1w0sk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=MehCcQmiX6Ob4HCyzPntvdWkilOeQEKJHBnCF42pdzilLZsGSdt9cfYtoLPl2eCN4 2PbIfX+LxNAhDGVHrrYmFDkGlco6pUKmvHLVvGouBKAFkeIX3a2nLinbFidZxLsa+k akJtyyzl8DgzjdZPeuGHBJnkfKfBfud7hWHhKSSCWI2Y10DpBWN06BWO/Id3CFir8D rIVQdIQQA0myHjTkSRpdRMj5AFYYJb+axah3QGr/6lqhshQViT2iRb4+NVViwKDT+p Sd3IBT1etDcI8JVKkxr2tqo2KW0edOn3w8OvhlzO7tqIORoWmBrFHgufL9RjzyRhTr E6zbpP/DnTvkA== To: arnold@skeeve.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <202302272022.31RKMG2L004091@freefriends.org> References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> <202302272004.31RK4aGG001510@freefriends.org> <2f6faeb4-5e73-cf18-b0ff-edc3e1658f72@case.edu> <202302272022.31RKMG2L004091@freefriends.org> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: AXP35W5GMQ6OD2UJJEKZMGOAM5P6LEDL X-Message-ID-Hash: AXP35W5GMQ6OD2UJJEKZMGOAM5P6LEDL X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Generational development [was Re: Re: Early GUI on Linux] List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco I see the wisdom in your last line there, I've typed and deleted a response= to this email 4 times, each one more convoluted than the last. The short of my stance though is, as a younger programmer (29), I am certai= nly not a fan of these trends that are all too common in my generation. Th= at said, I've set foot in one single softare-related class in my life (high= school Java class) and so I don't really know what is being taught to folks= going the traditional routes. All I know from my one abortive semester of= college is that I didn't see a whole lot of reliance on individual explora= tion of concepts in classes, just everyone working to a one-size-fits-all u= nderstanding of how to be a good employee in a given subject area. Of cour= se, this is also influenced by my philosophy and biases and such, and only = represents 4-5 months of observation, but if my minimal experience with col= lege is to be believed, I have little faith that educational programs are p= roducing much more than meat filters between StackOverflow and . No offense to said meat filters, people gotta work, but the= re is something lost when the constant march of production torpedoes indivi= dual creativity. Then again, do big firms want sophisticated engineers or = are we too far gone into assembly line programming with no personal connect= ion to any of the products? I'm glad I'm as personally involved in the stu= ff I work with, I could see myself slipping into the same patterns of apath= y if I was a nameless face in a sea of coders on some project I don't even = know the legal name of any given day. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 12:22 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > Chet Ramey chet.ramey@case.edu wrote: >=20 > > On 2/27/23 3:04 PM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > >=20 > > > IMHO the dependence upon IDEs is crippling; they cut & paste to the > > > almost total exclusion of the keyboard, including when shell completi= on > > > would be faster. > >=20 > > Don't forget cargo-culting by pasting shell commands they got from the = web > > and barely understand, if at all. >=20 >=20 > Yeah, really. >=20 > I do what I can, but it's a very steep uphill battle, as most > don't even understand that they're missing something, or that > they could learn it if they wanted to. >=20 > I think I'll stop ranting before I really get going. :-) >=20 > Arnold