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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bd5-20020a170902830500b001b8b4730355sm6436987plb.287.2023.07.13.17.20.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_43AF3FA8-D4CE-4940-AE8F-EA9C8F3289EC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.600.7\)) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:20:05 -0700 References: <0CCC47C3-950F-424B-AF6D-0F0DC08C53E5@gmail.com> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.600.7) Message-ID-Hash: IU7ZEQDCHXUPCMAXCVORP3UAXRTU2BK3 X-Message-ID-Hash: IU7ZEQDCHXUPCMAXCVORP3UAXRTU2BK3 X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell COBOL Environment? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_43AF3FA8-D4CE-4940-AE8F-EA9C8F3289EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Fortune Systems sold COBOL-74 along with a bunch of business = applications. Don't recall who we got it from. There was also SIBOL = (from an Irish company) that could run thousands DIBOL programs under = Unix (DIBOL was DEC's own business oriented language). Speaking of Fortune, I recently stumbled upon this short clip where = Stanley Kubrick (in 1983) says he wants a Fortune Computer for Christmas = because it runs the most advanced operating system: Unix!=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D54hrLTpsO5g > On Jul 13, 2023, at 4:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > Yes. And the need for COBOL also was mirrored in the micro world of = the time (at least the early 80s). Every micro with enough power seemed = to have a COBOL, but all of the offerings dried up before long because = although COBOL was a 'no brainer must have' for business, selling it = into this new market proved to be too hard. At least that's the = impression I was left with at the time, and also what the professors = that taught my 'language survey' course said about it... You can take = the raw code, but the underlying environment and services just weren't = there, so the raw code turned out to be useless most of the time (I also = got some $ re-writing a few hundred lines of COBOL business logic for a = local business that found that easier for a company that had, as luck = would have it, a PDP-11 database written in FORTRAN running on RT-11 or = RSTS/E). >=20 > Warner >=20 > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS = > wrote: >> The conclusion I'm coming to from what has been said thus far is that = people who were moving from COBOL and the mainframe world to UNIX didn't = have as much of a need for COBOL. Since that transition often involved = change in enough other aspects of an operation, moving to UNIX with the = same COBOL applications just wasn't the path to success for most folks, = as opposed to folks deeply invested in FORTRAN. Would that be a fair = characterization? >>=20 >> Thanks for the feedback by the way, one of the matters I'm trying to = suss out is what a typical COBOL environment on UNIX would've looked = like back when, and what it sounds like is a COBOL environment on UNIX = was anything but typical. >>=20 >> - Matt G. >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Thursday, July 13th, 2023 at 2:42 PM, Jon Forrest = > wrote: >>=20 >>> You=E2=80=99re thinking of Sybase. That=E2=80=99s where the name = =E2=80=9CSqlServer=E2=80=9D came from. Sybase sold a source code license = to Microsoft that included the right to use the name. >>>=20 >>> (I was a developer at Sybase in the VMS group in the late 1980s and = early 1990s) >>>=20 >>> Jon=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Jul 13, 2023, at 1:35 PM, Clem Cole > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> Matt - I never had direct (user) experience with it. Ireleases. = Also, I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB = implementation or not. In those days, there were a number of them = besides Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - = which later was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, = and that may have been part of it.=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_43AF3FA8-D4CE-4940-AE8F-EA9C8F3289EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Fortune Systems sold COBOL-74 along with = a bunch of business applications. Don't recall who we got it from. There = was also SIBOL (from an Irish company) that could run thousands DIBOL = programs  under Unix (DIBOL was DEC's own business oriented = language).

Speaking of Fortune, I recently stumbled = upon this short clip where Stanley Kubrick (in 1983) says he wants a = Fortune Computer for Christmas because it runs the most advanced = operating system: Unix! 

https://www.youtube= .com/watch?v=3D54hrLTpsO5g

On Jul 13, 2023, at 4:20 PM, Warner Losh = <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

Yes. And = the need for COBOL also was mirrored in the micro world of the time (at = least the early 80s). Every micro with enough power seemed to have a = COBOL, but all of the offerings dried up before long because although = COBOL was a 'no brainer must have' for business, selling it into this = new market proved to be too hard. At least that's the impression I was = left with at the time, and also what the professors that taught my = 'language survey' course said about it...  You can take the raw = code, but the underlying environment and services just weren't there, so = the raw code turned out to be useless most of the time (I also got some = $ re-writing a few hundred lines of COBOL business logic for a local = business that found that easier for a company that had, as luck would = have it, a PDP-11 database written in FORTRAN running on RT-11 or = RSTS/E).

Warner

On Thu, Jul = 13, 2023 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> = wrote:
The conclusion I'm coming to = from what has been said thus far is that people who were moving from = COBOL and the mainframe world to UNIX didn't have as much of a need for = COBOL.  Since that transition often involved change in enough other = aspects of an operation, moving to UNIX with the same COBOL applications = just wasn't the path to success for most folks, as opposed to folks = deeply invested in FORTRAN.  Would that be a fair = characterization?

Thanks for the feedback by the way, one of = the matters I'm trying to suss out is what a typical COBOL environment = on UNIX would've looked like back when, and what it sounds like is a = COBOL environment on UNIX was anything but typical.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, July 13th, 2023 at 2:42 PM, Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote:

You=E2=80=99re thinking of Sybase. That=E2=80=99s where the = name =E2=80=9CSqlServer=E2=80=9D came from. Sybase sold a source code = license to Microsoft that included the right to use the = name.

(I was a developer at Sybase in the VMS group = in the late 1980s and early = 1990s)

Jon 

Sent = from my iPhone

On = Jul 13, 2023, at 1:35 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> = wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Matt - I never had = direct (user) experience with it.  Ireleases. Also, I do not = remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB implementation or = not.  In those days, there were a number of them besides Ingres - = Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which later was = sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may have = been part of it. 


= --Apple-Mail=_43AF3FA8-D4CE-4940-AE8F-EA9C8F3289EC--