From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26833 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2021 01:48:22 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 31 Jan 2021 01:48:22 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A21D39C81A; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:48:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97449C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:47:47 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="Vm0/viWs"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DDA4B9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:47:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com [209.85.167.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DDA59C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:47:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id d18so14695336oic.3 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:47:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=AytgaGPZlr6N4pmSI2uiSCXAVH6YxOwRL9JOK3zbycM=; b=Vm0/viWsi3IxHbELj+QkSCDq/RZeUiwins9DRli0+8imp3qThgfsyQliuI8Kov/i2W hdLowXUmWAGGqanA0XCEjCSfnPHOkv+wp571SdbVOTSmARD02iEAAB3vZykWmQa2BMTD ajYTG5Z6076WfLfIAP0kjlJM7cmGZnChukuPsmrIV8x5gmu/f0Y4GjP19n/nLrovgM0z t1ugdlSCpI6iZd2+IpOGV1J2yctkyxtvdZV5xgoKQf+w1jjIody7xLfMP9wqPWGwnjDY 9Y5+2/jVqxhR9OF+jTZKnoiymnc78E2kEqIua5SGzc3xMZ5lex4I0jJyQ9Y9FJRGEHy1 Yo7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=AytgaGPZlr6N4pmSI2uiSCXAVH6YxOwRL9JOK3zbycM=; b=i3QrzagCKDpxlHbNm4NjU2tlo2IpQOywKowg4vjvBCmuJAcAaJP8oz+9tICWhlFlKo RUl3MQBLQZUGuYYPxd5hN0oDyd7im/790wgw5gPYKxYNyRiIMkoroxNm8iGNHjqgwnPC xKnw/Y/Baxeiayx5+oOTfC79VFa1jsSdI3qYZffBgA4ApFxzw8nRNKfmRHpkrJBUmMeQ KFSFPSRHv8TQeyaASWjz5XIaVmtYy4UURTyHR2pcaq67Phmss4BL6Sed8Q+XsZdSTypW lxkI/X3rwaMAmJTMwpT80D/dt0gh4VFAdFphP0dF0HzxWt5QeYav1ne5Ow3oSLTRHc6q 1zmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5319m5cprR/0pbM1ApbRLG7AEBj/wr2hW8ULR5IT9Jrb6yWkfP99 ZCDvQjRE5XcYub/AmQpTG+0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzl/hRZej2PoSwAvamf1dYuVkgqflshLPYz5+BLtViclCj20bLUVWEbA/hXJGzuOAMUIQYpJQ== X-Received: by 2002:aca:be87:: with SMTP id o129mr6661386oif.36.1612057663678; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.51.113.134] ([107.126.48.13]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k19sm3455873oic.52.2021.01.30.17.47.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:47:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Will Senn X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16H22) In-Reply-To: <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:47:41 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Oh brother. I use FreeBSD all the time. I prefer it for its stability and ZFS= which has NEVER let me down and I=E2=80=99ve done my share of stupid user e= rror. Now that Linux has ZFS, it doesn=E2=80=99t seem as stuck in the dark a= ges, but uptime on my fbsd instance is 10x any of my Linux instances. We are= soooo off topic, I think :). But, I=E2=80=99m always up for talking up FBSD= . I use it in my classes, too and the system is much more coherent for my sy= stems programming classes than linux. Will Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 30, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >=20 >> On Saturday, 30 January 2021 at 14:28:54 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: >>> If I could get the day-2-day >>> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be there i= n >>> a heartbeat. >>=20 >> I dunno about that. I tried out FreeBSD a couple of years ago when >> Netflix was flirting with me. The installer hasn't seen any loving in >> 30 years it would seem. The disk setup tool sucks just as bad as it >> did back in 1988. >=20 > You could be right there, for some value of 1988 (FreeBSD came into > being in 1992). The tools work without being good. But how often do > you use them? I've been using FreeBSD since the beginning, and I > can't recall when I last used the disk partitioning tool, though I'm > sure that when I did I overrode a lot of (all?) the suggestions. >=20 >> I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long >> time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good as >> Windows and maybe better. >=20 > FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing > (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into > serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn't > make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. >=20 >> And it got that way fast, I remember doing an install on some >> machine around 1998 or 1999, I didn't have a mouse plugged in, no >> worries, you could just move around with the keyboard. X11 came up >> as part of the install, the entire install was graphical and >> seamless. >=20 > The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it. >=20 >> FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. >=20 > You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? The normal user > interface is via the shell, which hasn't changed, and for a good > reason. >=20 >> They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end user >> system, >=20 > There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. > But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with your > underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros > have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I > try, the interface has changed. >=20 > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA