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[172.125.77.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w1sm3403218pjt.23.2020.12.09.15.22.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Dec 2020 15:22:30 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.20.0.2.21\)) From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <20201209165854.GK52960@mit.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 15:22:29 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20201209165854.GK52960@mit.edu> To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.20.0.2.21) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Were cron and at done at the same time? Or one before the other? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:06 AM, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote: >=20 > If you want to see a system that was more thoroughly _designed_, you > should probably point not to Dennis and Ken, but to systems like L4 = and > Plan-9, and people like Jochen Liedtk and Rob Pike. >=20 > And notice how they aren't all that popular or well known? "Design" = is > like a religion - too much of it makes you inflexibly and unpopular. I recently read an article that says in biology the =E2=80=9Cneutral theory=E2=80=9D (random chance has a profound effect on genetics and evolution) is much more accepted now than Darwin & Wallace=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPrinciple of Natural Selection=E2=80=9D (survival of the = fittest). This seems to apply here as well. Seems popularity has more to do with being in the right place at the right time. Both Plan9 & L4 are certainly more flexible. IMHO the =E2=80=9Creligion=E2=80=9D we are suffering from is "speed" or rather too much attention to premature optimization in the small. Each layer may be efficient but too many layers get used so at the system level things are much worse: slower and so complex that no one person understands the system. While h/w performance and capacity has increased by orders of magnitude, s/w has frittered away most of it. This religion (including use of unsafe languages like C) has been largely responsible for most of the vulnerabilities. We end up using containers and virtual machines (VMs) to try counter these vulnerabilities. VMs are a sledgehammer that wouldn=E2=80=99t be required for isolation if all the user s/w ran on a secure-by-design kernel (or hardware). Note that even the h/w features vulnerable to security attacks were put in to improve performance.=